thoughts vs. emotions

Post Reply
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

thoughts vs. emotions

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

For the Mahamudra/Semde instructions which involve looking at the color, shape, coming and going etc. of thoughts, does one practice with what we term "emotions" in the same way? There is no distinction made here between emotion and thought is there? Meaning, if I perceive a jolt of sadness arising, as an example (rather than what i'd think of as a discrete "thought" - something involving language or labeling) the instruction stays the same right?

To get into why I am asking this:

In the western world (hell maybe all of it) we all meditate (well, I do, and I assume lots of others do too) with incorrect assumption of mind/body dualism to some degree. Which means that I (perhaps erroneously) perceive emotions as being "in my body" and thoughts "in my mind". I can think of a number of ways to approach this, but I am wondering if it's best to just treat all phenomena I experience as "thoughts", recognize all phenomena are indeed mind intellectually, and to simply realize these distinctions are incorrect, or whether I should make a practice of examining the arbitrary distinctions themselves, as they themselves are "thoughts".

So actually, I would ask for the same reason whether in this particular instruction, sense data can also count as "thoughts".



Feel free to PM if you feel public explanation is inappropriate.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: thoughts vs. emotions

Post by Simon E. »

PM sent Johnny.

:namaste:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
User avatar
Wayfarer
Former staff member
Posts: 5150
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: AU

Re: thoughts vs. emotions

Post by Wayfarer »

I’ve always thought of it as ‘the wheel of thought and emotion’. They’re both viscerally connected. I suspect that this is what is meant in the traditional texts by ‘the passions’.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6287
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: thoughts vs. emotions

Post by heart »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:02 am For the Mahamudra/Semde instructions which involve looking at the color, shape, coming and going etc. of thoughts, does one practice with what we term "emotions" in the same way? There is no distinction made here between emotion and thought is there? Meaning, if I perceive a jolt of sadness arising, as an example (rather than what i'd think of as a discrete "thought" - something involving language or labeling) the instruction stays the same right?

To get into why I am asking this:

In the western world (hell maybe all of it) we all meditate (well, I do, and I assume lots of others do too) with incorrect assumption of mind/body dualism to some degree. Which means that I (perhaps erroneously) perceive emotions as being "in my body" and thoughts "in my mind". I can think of a number of ways to approach this, but I am wondering if it's best to just treat all phenomena I experience as "thoughts", recognize all phenomena are indeed mind intellectually, and to simply realize these distinctions are incorrect, or whether I should make a practice of examining the arbitrary distinctions themselves, as they themselves are "thoughts".

So actually, I would ask for the same reason whether in this particular instruction, sense data can also count as "thoughts".



Feel free to PM if you feel public explanation is inappropriate.
Yes, emotions are thoughts, at least according to CNR. Sense data are considered non-conceptual in their raw form but of course they are immediately labeled.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: thoughts vs. emotions

Post by Astus »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:02 am For the Mahamudra/Semde instructions which involve looking at the color, shape, coming and going etc. of thoughts, does one practice with what we term "emotions" in the same way?
It could be said that when it comes to analysing appearances on the mental side, also called the moving mind, then generating strong emotions is the recommended way at the beginning.
There is no distinction made here between emotion and thought is there?
Only to the extent of their obvious nature, of how strong they appear. That's why first using anger and lust is easier.
So actually, I would ask for the same reason whether in this particular instruction, sense data can also count as "thoughts".
Check out the 9th Karmapa's instructions on meditating on appearances. Step one: appearances are mind.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: thoughts vs. emotions

Post by LastLegend »

Thought is more of imprint habits from multiple past life characterized as delusion sustained and perpetuated by discriminating consciousness and intention. Emotion is more on the side of fruits or effects. All together is roughly called ignorance.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: thoughts vs. emotions

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Guys, thanks for all the responses. I'm interested in how this question functions in practice in Mahamudra. practice instruction, not the larger philosophical question so much. Astus: seems like establishing that all appearances are mind is the standard direction, thanks.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: thoughts vs. emotions

Post by LastLegend »

🤙
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: thoughts vs. emotions

Post by Grigoris »

My limited grasp of Abhidharma leads me to believe that emotions are just mind sensations, or sensory objects of mind. So that means they are no different to thoughts. Emotions like fear or anger, for example, seem to take place in the body, they actually belong to mind; although they influence the body.

Painful or pleasant sensations occur through the body, but the suffering or joy (mental/emotional states) that arises from them, occurs in the mind.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: thoughts vs. emotions

Post by LastLegend »

Grigoris wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:33 pm My limited grasp of Abhidharma leads me to believe that emotions are just mind sensations, or sensory objects of mind. So that means they are no different to thoughts. Although emotions like fear or anger, for example, seem to take place in the body (feeling), they actually belong to mind; though they influence the body.

Painful or pleasant sensations occur through the body, but the suffering or joy (mental/emotional states) that arises from them, occurs in the mind.
Hi,

I was informed a realized being (who passed the gate of samsara) still feels physical pain but they don’t have mental afflictions.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: thoughts vs. emotions

Post by Astus »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:59 pmseems like establishing that all appearances are mind is the standard direction
Yes, that it is. It should also be kept in mind that emotions fall under the category of samskara within the five aggregates, and under the mental concomitants (caitasika) within the abhidharma systems, often as primary and secondary afflictions (klesa & upaklesa). As for the basic feelings (vedana) of pleasant, painful, and neutral, they too exist as mental phenomena. But all that is basic Buddhism, not particularly Mahamudra, however, it serves as the fundamental perspective on what is what. I recommend this teaching on Bringing Obstacles to the Path that gives a practical perspective.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 5707
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: thoughts vs. emotions

Post by conebeckham »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:02 am For the Mahamudra/Semde instructions which involve looking at the color, shape, coming and going etc. of thoughts, does one practice with what we term "emotions" in the same way? There is no distinction made here between emotion and thought is there? Meaning, if I perceive a jolt of sadness arising, as an example (rather than what i'd think of as a discrete "thought" - something involving language or labeling) the instruction stays the same right?

To get into why I am asking this:

In the western world (hell maybe all of it) we all meditate (well, I do, and I assume lots of others do too) with incorrect assumption of mind/body dualism to some degree. Which means that I (perhaps erroneously) perceive emotions as being "in my body" and thoughts "in my mind". I can think of a number of ways to approach this, but I am wondering if it's best to just treat all phenomena I experience as "thoughts", recognize all phenomena are indeed mind intellectually, and to simply realize these distinctions are incorrect, or whether I should make a practice of examining the arbitrary distinctions themselves, as they themselves are "thoughts".

So actually, I would ask for the same reason whether in this particular instruction, sense data can also count as "thoughts".
In Mahamudra, we work with the mind, and sensations and emotions, wherever they are "felt," are in fact arising for us mentally, in the mind. In that sense, they are equivalent to "thoughts." All these are arising conditioned phenomena.

From the POV of practice, discussions or techniques regarding "creating" or "Stimulating" strong emotion are indeed valuable methods, but they are not for beginners. For beginners, one should simply recognize their arisal, and not attach. It is only with some stability that the active stimulation of emotional states is useful.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: thoughts vs. emotions

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Just rereading through Pointing Out The Dharmakaya, speaking of Thrangu Rinpoche; and there's a whole section on ascertaining whether the body and mind are different or the same, seems like a good starting point for me.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: thoughts vs. emotions

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

conebeckham wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:05 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:02 am For the Mahamudra/Semde instructions which involve looking at the color, shape, coming and going etc. of thoughts, does one practice with what we term "emotions" in the same way? There is no distinction made here between emotion and thought is there? Meaning, if I perceive a jolt of sadness arising, as an example (rather than what i'd think of as a discrete "thought" - something involving language or labeling) the instruction stays the same right?

To get into why I am asking this:

In the western world (hell maybe all of it) we all meditate (well, I do, and I assume lots of others do too) with incorrect assumption of mind/body dualism to some degree. Which means that I (perhaps erroneously) perceive emotions as being "in my body" and thoughts "in my mind". I can think of a number of ways to approach this, but I am wondering if it's best to just treat all phenomena I experience as "thoughts", recognize all phenomena are indeed mind intellectually, and to simply realize these distinctions are incorrect, or whether I should make a practice of examining the arbitrary distinctions themselves, as they themselves are "thoughts".

So actually, I would ask for the same reason whether in this particular instruction, sense data can also count as "thoughts".
In Mahamudra, we work with the mind, and sensations and emotions, wherever they are "felt," are in fact arising for us mentally, in the mind. In that sense, they are equivalent to "thoughts." All these are arising conditioned phenomena.

From the POV of practice, discussions or techniques regarding "creating" or "Stimulating" strong emotion are indeed valuable methods, but they are not for beginners. For beginners, one should simply recognize their arisal, and not attach. It is only with some stability that the active stimulation of emotional states is useful.

That's interesting Cone, I've seen some teachers teach this kind of thing "right out of the box", but I can see some reasons it wouldn't be useful to beginners.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Post Reply

Return to “Mahamudra”