Either case, the goal of the whole path remains being free from grasping.
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- Thu Aug 31, 2023 10:14 am
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:50 am
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
So, now you are saying awareness is not a composite? The aggregates are composite, so awareness - being the aggregate of consciousness - is composite. No experience of the end of afflictions, etc. How couldn't there be? Not conceiving an experience as me and mine is not the same as not having any. ...
- Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:21 am
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
When you say a buddha doesn't identify with compounded phenomena, who exactly is it that isn't identifying with compounded phenomena? Identification - conceptions of 'this is mine, I am this, this is my self' - or in other words, grasping at the aggregates ( SN 22.151 ) is not by a distinct person/...
- Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:56 pm
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Person 1, Buddhist, some time later : So, if we turn to the next chapter in the Mahāyāna-sūtrālamkāra, we'll see that after you realize the dharmakaya upon death and become a Buddha, you will emanate countless forms to guide sentient being towards maturity... The trikaya concept has its own twists ...
- Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:42 pm
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
My monk friend said that after nibbana, there is just awareness. You stated that even a Buddha’s awareness arises from skandhas. Awareness is part of the skandhas, not arising from them. I’m bringing up the fact that according to the Buddha, all impermanent things are unsatisfactory, and as stated ...
- Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:23 pm
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
So, I don't think that "free from attachments (I prefer to use clinging/grasping as the sutta uses - no word of attachment in that sutta you quoted, by the way) and identification" is the point of the practice. The ultimate goal is ending all grasping. 'The purpose of leading the spiritua...
- Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:45 am
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Certainly no monopoly. But is there any other system/teaching where all four types of grasping mentioned in the quote are eliminated?PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 11:48 pmFreedom from attachment and identification? Buddhism doesn’t have a monopoly on that.
- Wed Aug 30, 2023 9:55 am
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
This is an interesting argument. Every thoughtful person and all cultures across the history we know of have wondered about what happens to us after we die. It's one thing to say that we don't want to get lost in a thicket of views, etc. because the answer itself isn't necessary for enlightenment. ...
- Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:45 pm
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Oh I think there’s more to it than just that. Lots of paths can do that much. Not really. 'There are some other ascetics and brahmins who claim to propound the complete understanding of all kinds of grasping, but they don’t really. They describe the complete understanding of grasping at sensual ple...
- Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:35 pm
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
at the same time, all composite phenomena are unsatisfactory. If the awakened awareness of a Buddha was a composite, then enlightenment would be unsatisfactory. Then what would be the point of practice? The awakened body of a buddha is also composite. The point of practice is to be free from attach...
- Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:02 pm
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Yes, yes, but this just gets us right back to the start of the thread. If enlightenment is sheer negation/extinction/extinguishment, as it is described in some Theravada sources, then the extinction of grasping, etc. as the causes for becoming will lead to a lack of becoming (which is thus defined ...
- Tue Aug 29, 2023 7:57 am
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
That’s like saying that if the original nature of the mind is bodhi (awakened) there would be no cause for samsara to occur. Even a toenail's original nature is bodhi, as it is not inherently defiled. Defilement is the identification with and grasping at a toenail. Similarly, to mistake the mind/aw...
- Tue Aug 29, 2023 7:50 am
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Is enlightenment the result of cultivation? If so, shouldn't it be impermanent by definition? If it's impermanent, then buddhas can become sentient beings again, so why bother? Enlightenment is the result of cultivation, as it's stated by one of the most fundamental doctrines: the four noble truths...
- Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:27 pm
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
The argument is that awareness isn't some temporary state, and that as the result of studying, contemplating, and practicing (shravana, manana, nididhyasana), you actually can maintain awareness continuously: not only throughout your waking life, but also as the waking world collapses into the drea...
- Mon Aug 28, 2023 3:26 pm
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
This debate about awareness can be summed up quite nicely by Duckworth in terms of a distinction from phenomenology (favored by Yogacara and Vedanta) vs. ontology (favored by Madhyamaka) It can remain a phenomenological observation that no matter what state of mind, no matter what experience it is,...
- Mon Aug 28, 2023 1:47 pm
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
How do you know that you know this? In the same way one can know other things: experience, logic, tradition (oral/textual). Practically, if one is engaged in some activity, it takes extra effort to monitor how one is engaged, and that can even disturb one's original activity. This is easier to disc...
- Mon Aug 28, 2023 7:44 am
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
You can observe it for yourself. You can observe yourself observing it. You are aware that you are aware. And everything you observe is still an object of awareness. The fact of observation, simply because there are objects of awareness, proves that there is awareness. You can quote as many sutras ...
- Sun Aug 27, 2023 8:55 pm
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
There is still awareness of that awareness of mental phenomena. There is not and cannot be. That type of self-awareness requires the presence of multiple minds, so it's regularly rejected. It is also quite impractical as it merely ends up in an infinite series of awareness of awareness. 'The Guardi...
- Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:31 am
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Awareness of mental phenomena is what's called mental consciousness, it arises with the standard universal mental factors (mainly the other three mental aggregates), and the mental factors specific to the situation.
- Sun Aug 27, 2023 10:58 am
- Forum: Sūtra Studies
- Topic: The Modern Western Theravada bias
- Replies: 273
- Views: 17853
Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Of course, the sixth type of consciousness is mental consciousness, as noted before.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 10:15 am So, what are you saying comes into contact with a concept of not seeing? Consciousness?