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by Queequeg
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:38 pm
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

I've got nothing to argue. Nothing to comment on. No particular disagreement.
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:09 am There is something else going on here than mere Madhyamaka.
Nothing to argue about, bro. Its not your cup of tea. Move on.
by Queequeg
Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:15 pm
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

To use ziporyn's terminology, local coherence (conventions/dharma's) / global incoherence (emptiness). A is A in contrast to Not A; but Not A is an arbitrary distinction (Buddha makes distinctions in order to teach - upaya); but if A is intelligible only contrasted with Not A, Not A is actually an ...
by Queequeg
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:28 am
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

Just to add, middleway/buddha nature is a teaching on the aspect of reality itself being both the basis of ignorance and gnosis. When obscured, it's ignorance, but with reflection it's nature comes to be known. Zhiyi explains this as threefold buddha nature. Real aspect, buddha's teaching pointing t...
by Queequeg
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:09 am
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

To use ziporyn's terminology, local coherence (conventions/dharma's) / global incoherence (emptiness). A is A in contrast to Not A; but Not A is an arbitrary distinction (Buddha makes distinctions in order to teach - upaya); but if A is intelligible only contrasted with Not A, Not A is actually an i...
by Queequeg
Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:39 am
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

middle=thusness; not just emptiness. emptiness is just another aspect of conventionality. middle in the sudden & perfect teaching is seeing both fully integrated. distinct teaching sees the three aspects of the perfect teaching distinctly. Perfect teaching is described in MMK 24:18 Suchness is also...
by Queequeg
Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:50 am
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

“Whatever is dependently co-arisen, that is explained to be emptiness. That, being a dependent designation, is itself the middle way.”
24:18
by Queequeg
Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:33 am
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

middle=thusness; not just emptiness. emptiness is just another aspect of conventionality. middle in the sudden & perfect teaching is seeing both fully integrated. distinct teaching sees the three aspects of the perfect teaching distinctly. Perfect teaching is described in MMK 24:18
by Queequeg
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:11 pm
Forum: Tendai
Topic: "Method of Tendai Sitting Meditation"
Replies: 12
Views: 386

Re: "Method of Tendai Sitting Meditation"

I've heard that Tendai meditation methods include stimulating pressure points on the body to encourage circulation but had not ever heard of the use of breaths and sound. Found this article that might be of interest: https://www.buddhistdoor.net/features/curing-illness-with-meditation-in-sixth-centu...
by Queequeg
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:00 pm
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

I'm still trying to figure out why some sources spell his name like the mountain and some like the Southern Yue territory and which one is original and if spelling his name like ancient Vietnam is a mistake. I suspect the simpler character was adopted sometime in the last 1400 years. Often you see ...
by Queequeg
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:46 pm
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

C, you really would benefit from looking at Ng and Swanson on the Three Truths. The translation of FHHI includes a discussion of what myo means for Zhiyi.

Don't take this the wrong way... you are missing big parts of the picture.
by Queequeg
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:40 pm
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

It not just some philosophical appreciating of the conventional in the sense of, "Oh, what a pretty view." Ng is saying Zhiyi is proposing something waaaay more wondrous than that. I was thinking of "wondrous" in the sense of 妙, like in "The Flower Plucked and the Faint Smile," when the Buddha conf...
by Queequeg
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:28 pm
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

I'm tempted to agree with the reviewer I found earlier, For Ng the difference between Nagarjuna and Chih-i is essentially one between the middle way as avoidance of extremes and the middle way as the Buddha Nature. He seems, however, to be pushing his thesis about the Buddha Nature too far, to the ...
by Queequeg
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:23 pm
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

As a follow up, basically I read Nagarjuna as implying something beyond his analysis. His analysis in itself is intended to bring false views to an end but is not intended as a final teaching in the sense that it doesn't go to Buddha gnosis in a positive sense. I agree with the gist of what you're g...
by Queequeg
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:16 pm
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

Queequeg wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:08 pm If you already said this, I'll apologize, but is this the one in the index of his Makashikan translation?
Part of it is included in Volume 3, but not the part I'm referring to. That's only in his book, Tientai Philosophy.
by Queequeg
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:08 pm
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

So my argument will be that Ven Nagarjuna's middle is also buddha-nature. Not technically. Nagarjuna never actually says anything like that. Hence, it needing to be teased out. To us it must be teased out, but I am not necessarily convinced that Ven Zhiyi thought that it must be teased out of the Z...
by Queequeg
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:03 pm
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

Caoimhghín wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:38 pm What is Ng's paper again, if you don't mind? I will have to add it to the reading list.
Yu-Kwan Ng.
Tientai Buddhism and Early Madhyamaka

Also strongly recommend Swanson's Tientai Philosophy.

Both of these are addressed to how Zhiyi got his Three Truths.
by Queequeg
Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:31 pm
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

This from Makashikan appears to be the context: Nan-yüeh studied under the dhyāna master Hui-wen, who was without equal in the area of the Yellow River and Huai River during the reign of Kao-tsu of the Northern Ch'i dynasty. His teachings were not understood by the people of his day, as people who ...
by Queequeg
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:16 pm
Forum: Nichiren
Topic: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths
Replies: 220
Views: 3107

Re: Nagarjuna's tetralemma in contrast to Nichiren's interpretation of Tendai 3 Truths

Swanson thinks "Nan-yüeh" is a name, but I think it means Vietnam. I would take the passage to say that "From Vietnam, he [Ven Zhiyi] studied under the dhyana master Huiwen." Huiwen is Vietnamese. Swanson is much more qualified than I, however, so I am willing to concede that its someone's name and...

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