Dzogchen and Buddhism

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 14, 2012 7:20 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Dzogchen abandons the dichotomy between mind and matter found in sutra and tantra. Theoretically, this is a most crucial difference. Because it abandons this dichtomy, it also abandons the dichtomy between the sentient and the non-sentient.

N


If you can find dichotomies in sutra and tantra perhaps it is because you have been conditioned to think that way. Certainly in self-generation in HYT there can be no dichotomy, surely.



Self-generation is a visualization practice. Nevertheless it still involves creating an inanimate container universe to support the inner mandala. However, the plants and trees and so on that one visualizes are simply that, a mental image, and mental creation and nothing more.

The dichtomy between mind and matter in scholastic Buddhism is well established. How many times has one seen defenses of rebirth predicated on the difference in kind between mind and matter? We find them in Abhidharma, Sutra and even Tantra (i.e. where the mind is held to be a rider on the energy of the body). And this is perfectly fine within the context of those teachings.

In Dzogchen on the other hand, mind is held to be generated by the vāyus in the body. In the Khandro Nyinthig Padmasambhava declares that mind and vāyu are just different names for the same thing:

"...the energy of that vivid luminosity arising as the diversity, that is called “vāyu”, and it is called “mind”. Though luminosity is called mind, because of movement, it is called “vāyu”"

Mind, such as it is can be considered the subtle aspect of vāyu. But in reality, vāyu, the air element functioning in the human body, is what we call mind.

N
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon May 14, 2012 7:44 pm

Namdrol wrote:Self-generation is a visualization practice. Nevertheless it still involves creating an inanimate container universe to support the inner mandala. However, the plants and trees and so on that one visualizes are simply that, a mental image, and mental creation and nothing more.


N


Self-generation is only a visualisation practice if you believe that there is a 'real' I visualising an 'unreal' Yidam and mandala.

The experience of some may be just that. However, the purpose is to shift the mind and become the Yidam in the Yidam's world. The mind enters that reality totally so all phenomena are also real.

If the mind finally enters the mandala and remains there, it becomes that of an enlightened Buddha.

What does Dzogchen offer that is greater?
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Josef » Mon May 14, 2012 7:49 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:
What does Dzogchen offer that is greater?

Nothing really, Dzogchen just either skips the process or uses kyerim as a support.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon May 14, 2012 8:01 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
What does Dzogchen offer that is greater?

Nothing really, Dzogchen just either skips the process or uses kyerim as a support.


I'm obviously uneducated in Dzogchen, but how can you skip a process which leads directly to enlightenment?

Do you mean that you employ an alternative means which leads directly to enlightenment, in which case why use kyerim as a support?
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Silent Bob » Mon May 14, 2012 8:08 pm

This has been a very provocative and interesting thread (absolutely no sarcasm intended!) Ok, back to the shadows...

Chris
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Josef » Mon May 14, 2012 8:09 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
What does Dzogchen offer that is greater?

Nothing really, Dzogchen just either skips the process or uses kyerim as a support.


I'm obviously uneducated in Dzogchen, but how can you skip a process which leads directly to enlightenment?

Do you mean that you employ an alternative means which leads directly to enlightenment, in which case why use kyerim as a support?

Well, kyerim doesn't lead directly to Buddhahood actually. It transforms our perceptions and emotions etc so dzogrim can be effective. Kyerim also starts on the mental level with constructing the visualization at the level of ordinary mental functioning ( I realize this is hair splitting a bit but it is a key distinction).

So rather than going through the process of transformation in kyerim one can go directly to the source so to speak via Dzogchen.

We use kyerim as a support in the sense of removing obstacles, prolonging life, health, as well as using it for the great qualities that is generates in the practitioner, such as transformation of perception and emotions etc.

Basically, one could choose not to do kyerim at all if they were so inclined but it is incredibly useful.

Personally, I like mantra and visualization practices and they are very useful for me so I do them every day.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon May 14, 2012 8:26 pm

Nangwa wrote:Well, kyerim doesn't lead directly to Buddhahood actually.


HYT and Mahamudra do lead directly to enlightenment, which was my assertion. Apologies if I didn't convey that.

I have no problem with anyone positing that Dzogchen is alternative or complementary.

I do have a problem with assertions that HYT self-generation etc. is merely a useful support to the superior practice of Dzogchen, which is posited as the only route to Buddhahood.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Josef » Mon May 14, 2012 8:31 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:
Nangwa wrote:Well, kyerim doesn't lead directly to Buddhahood actually.


HYT and Mahamudra do lead directly to enlightenment, which was my assertion. Apologies if I didn't convey that.

I have no problem with anyone positing that Dzogchen is alternative or complementary.

I do have a problem with assertions that HYT self-generation etc. is merely a useful support to the superior practice of Dzogchen, which is posited as the only route to Buddhahood.

They do lead to buddhahood, it's just a more gradual path.
The only real difference is that they are not necessities from the Dzogchen perspective.
This doesn't diminish the power or quality of kyerim and Mahamudra.
It's about differences of practitioners dispositions.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Mon May 14, 2012 8:35 pm

For a Dzogchen practitioner those are secondary practices, meaning that you use them if you feel such need. There's no obligation, however.
This doesn't mean practicing HYT and Mahamudra doesn't lead to Buddhahood. It means Dzogchen contains all that is needed, so you will only use other methods if you want.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Mon May 14, 2012 8:36 pm

Didn't know you were writing, Nangwa. After yours, my post was unnecessary. :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon May 14, 2012 8:40 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
Nangwa wrote:Well, kyerim doesn't lead directly to Buddhahood actually.


HYT and Mahamudra do lead directly to enlightenment, which was my assertion. Apologies if I didn't convey that.

I have no problem with anyone positing that Dzogchen is alternative or complementary.

I do have a problem with assertions that HYT self-generation etc. is merely a useful support to the superior practice of Dzogchen, which is posited as the only route to Buddhahood.

They do lead to buddhahood, it's just a more gradual path.
The only real difference is that they are not necessities from the Dzogchen perspective.
This doesn't diminish the power or quality of kyerim and Mahamudra.
It's about differences of practitioners dispositions.


So from an HYT perspective Dzogchen is not necessary?

Is there a body of evidence to support the assertion that Dzogchen is a more rapid path? I had assumed that past lives had a part to play in how long enlightenment may take, and what part our present life may play - which may mean that one person who enters HYT and Mahamudra may become attain Buddhahood before another who follows the Dzogchen route?

I'm not putting down the Dzogchen path btw, just seeking to contextualise it. ;)
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon May 14, 2012 8:41 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:For a Dzogchen practitioner those are secondary practices, meaning that you use them if you feel such need. There's no obligation, however.
This doesn't mean practicing HYT and Mahamudra doesn't lead to Buddhahood. It means Dzogchen contains all that is needed, so you will only use other methods if you want.


Ah, so both are complete routes to Buddhahood.

That answers the two questions I posed earlier:

Does Buddhism need Dzogchen? No, it already has a complete route to Buddhahood.

Does Dzogchen need Buddhism? No, it is able to be a complete path without it.

Thanks. :)
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Mon May 14, 2012 8:44 pm

Yes, of course. If someone doesn't feel drawn to Dzogchen, there's still a lot to choose! It's not like Dzogchen is the only path.
Well, Dzogchen is Buddhadharma. This is inescapable, as the fruit is Buddhahood. It just doesn't need methods or views from other yanas, but most practitioners use them, the practices not the views, if the need arises.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon May 14, 2012 8:45 pm

Pero wrote:No Greg, we don't. Because he isn't.

Really?
Those for whom these things are no longer necessary are great spiritual people, truly sublime beings.
"These things" that "are no longer necessary" are "no longer necessary" for those that have realised them (realise to make real, not to understand) and the only ones that have realised "these things" are realised beings. Seeing how we are not realised beings, but ignorant fools, then "these things" are obviously VERY necessary. Of course that does not mean that we cannot try, but given our incapacity we are just paving the road to lower rebirth with golden stones given that we: are not free from concepts, cannot guard effectively against heedlessness, continue to have a contrived mind, take illusions for reality and do not abide constantly in our true nature.

Now if you do display ALL these qualities then please email me a recent photo of yourself to add to my shrine and bow down, and make offerings, to every morning (please include your seed syallble and mantra as well along with the photo).

Cheers! :tongue:
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Mariusz » Mon May 14, 2012 8:48 pm

Namdrol wrote:The dichtomy between mind and matter in scholastic Buddhism is well established.
N
Did you mean madhyamaka or yogacara, because for me it is difficult to find? Can you quote?
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Mon May 14, 2012 9:01 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:
Nangwa wrote:Well, kyerim doesn't lead directly to Buddhahood actually.


HYT and Mahamudra do lead directly to enlightenment, which was my assertion. Apologies if I didn't convey that.

I have no problem with anyone positing that Dzogchen is alternative or complementary.

I do have a problem with assertions that HYT self-generation etc. is merely a useful support to the superior practice of Dzogchen, which is posited as the only route to Buddhahood.


Dzogchen is enlightenment

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon May 14, 2012 9:09 pm

Surprised no one commented on what I posted in the Mahamudra subforum (Alexander Berzin is mainly a Gelugpa I believe, although I'll bet that he's received Dzogchen teachings from the H.H. the Dalai Lama):



In Fundamentals of Dzogchen Meditation, Alexander Berzin wrote:Recognizing Effulgent Rigpa

We must be careful not to confuse and take the realization of the alaya for habits to be the realization of rigpa. Further, we need to be careful not to confuse and take to be the realization of rigpa a decisive awareness (nges-shes) of either the conventional nature (the mere producing and perceiving of cognitive appearances) or the deepest nature (voidness) of the alaya for habits. To do so would be confusing Dzogchen meditation with Gelug/Kagyu Mahamudra.

We need to go deeper and subtler, so that we experience and recognize a cognitive inbetween space that has deep awareness of its own two-truth nature. If we succeed, the factor of dumbfoundedness stops accompanying our meditation and the alaya for habits becomes rigpa. Because of having "greased" the pathways of our energy-channels with previous anuyoga practice and synchronized the winds with mantra recitation, then in the process of this meditation, all grosser levels of mental activity - and specifically the alaya for habits - automatically dissolve.


This post in the Mahamudra subforum quoting Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche is definitely noteworthy as well:


viewtopic.php?f=100&t=8290&start=0#p99699

.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby heart » Mon May 14, 2012 9:15 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Yes, of course. If someone doesn't feel drawn to Dzogchen, there's still a lot to choose! It's not like Dzogchen is the only path.
Well, Dzogchen is Buddhadharma. This is inescapable, as the fruit is Buddhahood. It just doesn't need methods or views from other yanas, but most practitioners use them, the practices not the views, if the need arises.


So why don't you just drop all those unnecessary methods then Dechen? You just keep repeating that they are unnecessary, like a mantra or a dogma, but obviously they are still necessary for you? Am I right?

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon May 14, 2012 9:19 pm

Sönam wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
Nangwa wrote:Well, kyerim doesn't lead directly to Buddhahood actually.


HYT and Mahamudra do lead directly to enlightenment, which was my assertion. Apologies if I didn't convey that.

I have no problem with anyone positing that Dzogchen is alternative or complementary.

I do have a problem with assertions that HYT self-generation etc. is merely a useful support to the superior practice of Dzogchen, which is posited as the only route to Buddhahood.


Dzogchen is enlightenment

Sönam


Enlightenment is Enlightenment.

If we are acting with the understanding you posit, we are all Dzogchenpa and there is no need of any path, and therefore no need of any special Dzogchen direct transmission. Quite a few here had received Dzogchen direct transmissions so if Dzogchen is enlightenment, as opposed to one of several paths towards it, why are they not all enlightened instantly? :)
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Pero » Mon May 14, 2012 9:35 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Pero wrote:No Greg, we don't. Because he isn't.

Really?
Those for whom these things are no longer necessary are great spiritual people, truly sublime beings.
"These things" that "are no longer necessary" are "no longer necessary" for those that have realised them (realise to make real, not to understand) and the only ones that have realised "these things" are realised beings. Seeing how we are not realised beings, but ignorant fools, then "these things" are obviously VERY necessary. Of course that does not mean that we cannot try, but given our incapacity we are just paving the road to lower rebirth with golden stones given that we: are not free from concepts, cannot guard effectively against heedlessness, continue to have a contrived mind, take illusions for reality and do not abide constantly in our true nature.

You said fully enlightened beings. Do fully enlightened beings need pith instructions?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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