Dechen Norbu wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:I find Dzogchen's stance of being both a part of and also outside Buddhism to be quite off-putting.
I practice Buddhism for a reason, it is a path that works for me. If that means that I am attached to "Buddhism" then I accept that, quite gladly. If I wanted to have Muslims and Christians practicing with me then I would have gone to where they practice. I accept that Dzogchen's approach is good for the turnstiles, but I am having difficulty with it. I could explain that much better but not within the terms of the Board here.
I'm old-school on this, and not apologizing for it. Some things come with time and practice, mostly the good things in the Dharma. This whole Ati-lite thing is getting on my nerves. Read something like "Blazing Splendor" and see how Dzogchen should be studied.
I understand your perspective. It was a struggle for me too.
The thing is that this isn't Dzogchen lite we're talking about. It's Dzogchen without bullshit. Dzogchen with bullshit must be served for those who can't accept its naked version. As long as it works...
PS I'm still dumping a lot of unnecessary baggage. The fact is that Dzogchen as it is does away with many things we used as crutches. It's not easy to leave them when we used them for many years. Sometimes it's even a bit scary, I dare to say.
PPS bullshit from a Dzogchen perspective, that is, as in not necessary for its practice. On its own, it's not bullshit. So it's in an utilitarian sense that I'm using the word (I accept more polite suggestions that convey the same meaning).
I'm aware of that, and of course all of that has its place.
I just don't think it's for me, and I say that after a long and rigorous investigation. And that has nothing to do with my mental and intellectual abilities, it's just what I see as an effective vehicle for me, one where I will make the most progress with.
As I see it Dzogchen was an add-on, a stage that you reached after you did the hard yards, once your arse was already calloused from meditation and all those "unnecessary" things. Nowadays Dzogchen is, in some instances, is just an excuse for being lazy, for being superior, for another identity on top of your old self, just spiritual materialism gone nuts (apologies to Trungpa Rinpoche). The Greats, from Dudjom Rinpoche to Patrul Rinpoche to Kyentse Rinpoche to Urgyen Rinpoche didn't swan around being "dzogchenpas", they worked hard at their practice every day all their lives, up until the last days.
This thread is about what is necessary for Dzogchen, amongst others, and it touches exactly on what I have been struggling with these last few months.
I'm aware of my crutches, and I have made peace with them. I need them until such time as I can stand on my own. And please, a part of what pisses me off about this is exactly the superior attitude of "One day when you are ready Dzogchen will be waiting".
Just my personal thoughts, nothing important.