Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Individual
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby Individual » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:33 am

Alex, would you agree that omniscience and omnipotence are logically incompatible? Because: if you knew everything, you would not have the power of free-will, because you would already see all origins and results, and would have no foundation upon which to act freely. And if you had omnipotence, the power to do anything (including the power of free-will), you would have to have be ignorant of certain things in order to act freely, and not see how the source and result of any action before it had ever started.

Hence, birth (jati) is dependent on ignorance. The cessation of ignorance is the cessation of beings. This is something you've said before -- comparing Nibbana to something like annihilation... right? You follow me so far? :)
The best things in life aren't things.


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Alex123
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby Alex123 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:39 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:26 am


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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:47 am


tinhtan
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby tinhtan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:35 am

Hello Alex,

just a comment, maybe that you know all of this, but I will try to put it in another manner.

IMO, choice, in practice is called manasikara (direct attention to, turn towards ,..)

good (or skilfull) choice = yoniso manasikara
bad (or unskillfull) choice = ayoniso manasikara

see :
MN 19 : Dvedhavitakka Sutta: Two Sorts of Thinking
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


MN 20 : Vitakkasanthana Sutta: The Relaxation of Thoughts
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

how does one arrive to decide that this is yoniso manasikara or that is ayoniso manasikara ?
- by knowing what is greed/aversion/delusion (lhoba/dosa/moha)
and knowing what is non-greed/non-aversion-non-delusion (alhoba/adosa/amoha)
and seeing & feeling the (bad/good/neutral) results of such and such actions/speeches/thoughts under these mentals, happened on you or others.
after that, with compassion , do in the direction of what is considered to be yoniso manasikara.
that is, IMO, the key that one can and must see.
see AN 3.65 : Kalama Sutta: To the Kalamas
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Now we are luckyly met the unsurpassed instructor of deva&human being that show us the right direction to see.
The paticcasamuppada can be seen from different angles. When one is not at least sotapanna, one must remind that most of his reaction is conditionned by ignorance-Avijja and/or graving-tanha. And tanha is conditionned by vedana. Vedana is a result that we cannot avoid. But we can "deal" (if you don't like choose) in an "ayoniso-manasikara" manner that causes tanha (then dukkha), or in a "yoniso-manasikara" manner that cuts the arising of dukkha.
ignorance-avijja can be dispelled by studying/hearing/reflecting on this Buddha-sasana and practising in accordance.

So what is the Buddha path ? that is the 37 Boddhipakiyadhammas. and between them if one "wants" to "obtain" the goal for which he followed the path of this Buddha Dhamma, one need to cultivate the "Four bases of power" (desire, persistence, intent, discrimination). Why ? because according to the universal law of kamma, and it is obviously that one will obtain an expected result/effect if one desires/reflects/makes efforts to create conditions that allow it to happen. You should note that "Four bases of power" come after 1/ Four frames of reference 2/ Four exertion. Surely that in this BuddhaDhamma, understanding Dhamma comes first which will lead one to the correct practice without unnecessarely over-thinking about no-self : as the Bouddha advice : practice and see for your"self" ;-)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... part2.html


Only the arahant has completely liberated from the sense, the feeling of a SELF, remember why the Buddha did teach anatta only after that the first 5 bikkhus had attained sotapanna ?
So where are you now on the path ? I think that there is no need to over-thinking about SELF or NO-SELF : just letting go , otherwise the dhamma anatta will become a concept of anatta, then an attachment of the anatta-view. In fact, this is a SELF-VIEW on the NO-SELF concept if one does not attain sotapanna.

Just check out if in a practical way, does one practice with letting go - upekkha - by reflecting & undestanding that "this is not mine, this is not I, this is not my Self" ?.
If one pratice diligently then one day, this will come true within him :
there is action , but no actor
there is choice , but no chooser
there is kamma, but no doer
there is path , but no walker

just my two cents :toast:
Best wishes
metta

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kirk5a
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby kirk5a » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:18 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Alex123
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby Alex123 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:40 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby Alex123 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:48 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

rowyourboat
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:58 pm

Hi Alex,

I just read what you posted on meditation. You are right to some degree. We cannot will outcomes to happen, in meditation. All we can do is to create an abundance of causes.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:20 pm


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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:57 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Alex123
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby Alex123 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:38 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby Alex123 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:51 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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retrofuturist
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:56 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Alex123
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby Alex123 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:25 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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retrofuturist
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:39 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Alex123
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby Alex123 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:46 am

Hi Retro,


Tittha sutta rejects chalking everything just to past causes indiscriminately. But there are not just any kind of past causes. There are specific conditions that are happening now, and recently that can condition wholesome or unwholesome action.

Good actions are due to wholesome causes, bad actions due to unwholesome causes. Some non-Buddhist teachers seemed to reject that, and perhaps that is part of the reason why the Buddha rejected what was said in Tittha sutta. That wrong view in Tittha sutta doesn't take into account the great positive effect that listening & considering the Dhamma can bring and negative effect of considering wrong teachings and placing faith in them.


With metta,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:52 am

Greetings Alex,

Where does the Buddha draw a distinction between "causes" and "conditions"?

If you can point me to the Pali words it would be greatly appreciated. I remain unconvinced that it's not some kind of sectarian side-step.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Dan74
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby Dan74 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:53 am

redundant
Last edited by Dan74 on Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_

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Alex123
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Postby Alex123 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:59 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."


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