Dzogchen and Buddhism

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Malcolm
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Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 13, 2012 10:22 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Jnana
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Jnana » Sun May 13, 2012 11:01 pm


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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Mon May 14, 2012 1:05 am

You know, I've been thinking the same, although my knowledge doesn't even come close to yours (so I don't know exactly what I'm missing). It's just that the more I learn about Dzogchen, the more I get convinced that it can stand almost, if not entirely, alone, as long as one has a qualified master and good spiritual friends to ask questions.
I think "The Precious Vase", by ChNN, covers the minimal requirements of what needs to be known. Much more than that seems a little dispensable, as long as one has quality guidance and doesn't come to Dzogchen with deeply rooted and terribly mistaken views.
The Precious Vase summarizes many things that took me years to learn from several sources and to that adds a few more with nice clarity (especially about Tantra- there were steps during empowerments that I received that I understand much better now- and, obviously Dzogchen). I believe this is a book everyone wanting to practice Dzogchen without a solid Buddhist background should read and practice. More is fine, perhaps on Madhyamaka to avoid the pitfal of crypto-advaita as has been said. Less may be insufficient. The base level of the SMS program seems very well structured. I'm considering engaging in it although I'll be repeating some steps I did when I practiced Ngöndro, but nevertheless I'm feeling quite tempted to go through it.

Bhusuku
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Bhusuku » Mon May 14, 2012 1:39 am


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Karma Dorje
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Karma Dorje » Mon May 14, 2012 1:55 am

While I am violently in agreement with the gist of this as it accords with one's own practice, I think it is important that one is able to explain the dharma to students at all levels of understanding. Not everyone is ready for the highest view. If one is never going to teach, there is probably limited benefit to a khenpo or geshe curriculum. (Studying a little shentong or Shaktadvaita can help avoid the pitfall of crypto-nihilism, though!)

There is however a problem I have seen even among people who have received dzogchen teachings with a lack of enthusiastic perseverance that a more solid grounding in tonglen/lojong would give them. There is no question that bodhicitta is entirely contained within dzogchen view if one really understands, but at least in my experience many people who profess a dzogchen view have more of an intellectual approach than an experiential one. This is exactly the sort of pitfall that a realized guru will be able to point out and undercut. Without a true master of dzogchen, I think the whole path becomes much, much more complicated.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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heart
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby heart » Mon May 14, 2012 7:34 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Andrew108
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Andrew108 » Mon May 14, 2012 7:39 am

When Dzogchen is presented as a path in itself and as the ultimate - well then it just gets taken on as an idea. So Madyamaka is really the crucial foundation. If you 'think' there is a difference between the intent of Dzogchen and Prajanparamita then you haven't really understood - this leads people astray. You know the words differ but the intent does not. Understand the sutras in a perfect way and you understand Dzogchen in a perfect way.
A lot of this talk of Dzogchen being a vehicle by itself is like the 'Emporer's New Clothes' fairytale when the smartest tailor offers up clothes that at first look the finest, but that aren't really anything at all. If you take the not anything at all as something then you just look like an idiot. There are a lot of smart people in the Dzogchen Community who understand this.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby DarwidHalim » Mon May 14, 2012 7:46 am

I personally feel they are just political propaganda.

I don't feel Dzoghchen is superior than sutra and so on.

Sutra is huge. It varies from very gross to very subtle, while Dzoghchen and Mahamudra touch on the subtlest part.

If we see this Sutta.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html

"Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising."

This Sutta is just same with prajnaparamitta Sutta. Different words, but Referring to the same meaning.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Sönam
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Mon May 14, 2012 7:48 am

Except Dzogchen is not progressive ... and it relies on Guru's presentation.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby DarwidHalim » Mon May 14, 2012 7:58 am

Progressive and non progressive relies on the human capability, not on the teaching.

If we see sutra Mahamudra for example, the explanation is direct. On paper, by reading that statement, the next second you should realize it. But in practise, things doesn't work in that way. So many practitioners, even he is Dzoghchen or Mahamudra practitioner have to spend years and years in their meditation.

The one that realize just by hearing is very very rare. Huineng is capable to realize it instantly when the 5th patriarch describing ultimate nature. He didnt know how to read, but he realize it straight away. He is not a tantric practitioner.

In Sutta schools, there are also people who has this capability to realize directly the ultimate nature. This can be seen in the life history of Buddha's students.

I don't think all Theravada students are the progressive type. Some of them can be the direct type as well.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

Andrew108
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Andrew108 » Mon May 14, 2012 8:07 am

DarwidHalim - Nice post.
Sönam - Dzogchen is progressive when it is taught as a vehicle in itself via the Guru's presentation. In the DC there is an idea of levels and progress. If you say something is ultimate then people think they will get the ultimate and become 'the ultimate'. But higher views depend on lower views - it's just conceptual fabrication. Obviously there is no such thing as Dzogchen and this knowing is part of having knowledge not just of Dzogchen but of Buddha dharma. A paradox. You have to know you are naked rather than being proud - showing off your fine new clothes the tailor made for you doesn't make it work.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Sönam
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Mon May 14, 2012 8:51 am

Andrew,

Dzogchen is not taught ... it's a mistake or a preliminary.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

Blue Garuda
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon May 14, 2012 9:56 am

Maybe it's time for a 'Dzogchen Wheel' forum for those who are now pursuing a far superior and advanced practice compared with those within ordinary mundane old Mahayana? :shrug:

Two easy questions:

Does Dzogchen need Buddhism?

Does Buddhism need Dzogchen?

Watching Dzogchen threads here proliferate, much of it seems to be based on dangling the exclusivity and superiority of it which reminds me of the uncomfotable threads where Vajrayana practitioners talk of the incompleteness of 'Hinayana'.

I have no idea whether Dzogchen is superior, or what it may be superior to, but I'm pretty sure that eventually another practice will be hailed as THE practice leading directly to enlightenment.

It used to be Tantra, then Highest Yoga Tantra and Mahamudra, now Dzogchen.

''The only way the true nature of your mind may be revealed is by...........(insert invisible and intangible product here, available only from mutually-approved dealerships) .'' LOL :)

I can't comment on whether Dzogchen works or not, nor whether it is superior or not, nor even whether it is a part of Buddhism or the other way round. However, I am very wary, having made a few bad decisions in the past. As a marketing professional, I can't help observe the patterns.
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Caz
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Caz » Mon May 14, 2012 10:19 am

So why does Dzogchen throw Sutra and Tantra out the window so to speak :?:
Is Tantra incomplete compared to Dzogchen, If so many Tantric schools produce highly accomplished masters why is Dzogchen not the pinnacle of all of them ? :shrug:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon May 14, 2012 12:11 pm

The best meditation is no meditation

Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon May 14, 2012 12:26 pm


Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon May 14, 2012 12:37 pm


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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2012 12:47 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon May 14, 2012 12:50 pm

Last edited by Pema Rigdzin on Mon May 14, 2012 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Andrew108
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Andrew108 » Mon May 14, 2012 12:59 pm

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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