Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:32 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: recent Jogye controversy
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Posts: 639
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.
Quote:
The leader of South Korea's biggest Buddhist order has apologised after monks were filmed apparently gambling illegally. Six leaders of the Jogye order offered to resign on Thursday after the secretly-filmed footage emerged. Film apparently showing monks playing poker at a luxury hotel, some smoking and drinking, was aired on television....


More here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18030813

_________________
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Quote:
The leader of South Korea's biggest Buddhist order has apologised after monks were filmed apparently gambling illegally. Six leaders of the Jogye order offered to resign on Thursday after the secretly-filmed footage emerged. Film apparently showing monks playing poker at a luxury hotel, some smoking and drinking, was aired on television....


More here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18030813



Ha! Back in the early '90's there was a strip joint (The Naked Eye) where some strippers that were friends of mine used to work in Boston in the Combat Zone. One night a friend and I headed down there for a drink and five Korean monks, in their monastic dress, who were staying at the Cambridge Zen Center walked out of the place as we were walking in. Our friend, who has dancing that evening, told us they had left her the best tip she had had so far that night.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Posts: 639
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.
Ah, the joys of monasticism :)

_________________
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:14 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
"Self repent on their behalf"???
My question is: where were the hookers?
:tongue:
Oh well, what a surprise, Buddhists are just normal people too!
:namaste:

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm
Posts: 1967
I'm not very familiar with this sect.

Are they priests rather than monks and would they have taken different vows?

Apparently the gambling was a breach of their vows,but what about the drinking.

The offenders have 'offered' to resign and the head is offering 'self repentance'.

So none of the offenders has resigned or offered their individual repentance?

_________________
Left


Last edited by Blue Garuda on Fri May 11, 2012 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:11 am
Posts: 460
Location: South Africa
People having fun.

How dare they :cheers:

_________________
As bad as bad becomes its not a part of you

Talk Talk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
mindyourmind wrote:
People having fun.

How dare they :cheers:



I know, what is the world coming too, meat eating, and now this. :shock:

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm
Posts: 1967
mindyourmind wrote:
People having fun.

How dare they :cheers:


That's the 4NT and 8FP down the gurlger then.

I've seen what happens to disciples whose gurus crash and burn through sex, alcohol etc.

One person's 'fun' may be a source of suffering for them, but a source of devastation for their disciples.

For that reason it's not something I can see as a source of humour.

_________________
Left


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:48 am
Posts: 126
Due to the first seed perhaps.They can change or pretend to change, but it'll always be there.

We should keep our brighter side wide,

To tick off our darker whole,

As there's a Jekyll and Hyde,

Who lives in every soul.


Attachments:
123.jpg
123.jpg [ 31.79 KiB | Viewed 1167 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 7:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:11 am
Posts: 460
Location: South Africa
Blue Garuda wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:
People having fun.

How dare they :cheers:


That's the 4NT and 8FP down the gurlger then.

I've seen what happens to disciples whose gurus crash and burn through sex, alcohol etc.

One person's 'fun' may be a source of suffering for them, but a source of devastation for their disciples.

For that reason it's not something I can see as a source of humour.


I understand that, and I agree with you. I am also however hoping that those disciples can learn something from this, maybe a lighter side, maybe some funny side, maybe a teaching on letting go of "truths" that can help them on their path. Maybe.

_________________
As bad as bad becomes its not a part of you

Talk Talk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm
Posts: 1967
mindyourmind wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:
People having fun.

How dare they :cheers:


That's the 4NT and 8FP down the gurlger then.

I've seen what happens to disciples whose gurus crash and burn through sex, alcohol etc.

One person's 'fun' may be a source of suffering for them, but a source of devastation for their disciples.

For that reason it's not something I can see as a source of humour.


I understand that, and I agree with you. I am also however hoping that those disciples can learn something from this, maybe a lighter side, maybe some funny side, maybe a teaching on letting go of "truths" that can help them on their path. Maybe.


:anjali:

_________________
Left


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 3:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Posts: 5986
Location: Taiwan
Namdrol wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:
People having fun.

How dare they :cheers:



I know, what is the world coming too, meat eating, and now this. :shock:


Historically this kind of behaviour has never been uncommon in Buddhism. Theravada, East Asia or Tibetan, this sort of thing happens. It makes you wonder though about the ultimate value of such institutions. Is it really about renunciation from samsaric ways, or something else?

_________________
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog) Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog) Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog) Dharma Depository (Site)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm
Posts: 1967
Huseng wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:
People having fun.

How dare they :cheers:



I know, what is the world coming too, meat eating, and now this. :shock:


Historically this kind of behaviour has never been uncommon in Buddhism. Theravada, East Asia or Tibetan, this sort of thing happens. It makes you wonder though about the ultimate value of such institutions. Is it really about renunciation from samsaric ways, or something else?


I think it has more to do with individuals who are persuaded that the 8FP is not necessary for them. because they are somehow already so enlightened that it will not be detrimental to them or their followers. It seems to me that some gurus have persuaded others that somehow there is a Buddhist path which is just sooooo advanced it can ignore unwholesome behaviour and the 8FP completely. These monks are weak and foolish, others are potentially much more harmful.

As I wrote before, if they want to harm themselves it is sad, but the harm they do to their disciples is tragic.

_________________
Left


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 5:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Posts: 5986
Location: Taiwan
Blue Garuda wrote:
I think it has more to do with individuals who are persuaded that the 8FP is not necessary for them. because they are somehow already so enlightened that it will not be detrimental to them or their followers. It seems to me that some gurus have persuaded others that somehow there is a Buddhist path which is just sooooo advanced it can ignore unwholesome behaviour and the 8FP completely. These monks are weak and foolish, others are potentially much more harmful.

As I wrote before, if they want to harm themselves it is sad, but the harm they do to their disciples is tragic.


I think the main problem lay in the reality that many monastics are in their positions as a result of having decided on it as a career path, rather than as a means of overcoming samsara.

Institutionalized Buddhism generally offers a comfortable life to those who would enter as lifelong clergy. This means you probably won't get renunciate yogis running day to day operations and having access to money.

_________________
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog) Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog) Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog) Dharma Depository (Site)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 5:19 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 4612
Location: Baltimore, MD
Huseng wrote:
Institutionalized Buddhism generally offers a comfortable life to those who would enter as lifelong clergy. This means you probably won't get renunciate yogis running day to day operations and having access to money.


Renunciate yogis - are they any more than a myth or a memory nowadays?

Of course I exaggerate a bit - I'm certain that there are some renunciate yogis in the Jogye order. But they not likely to attain operational positions as you note.

Kirt

_________________
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 5:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Posts: 5986
Location: Taiwan
kirtu wrote:
Renunciate yogis - are they any more than a myth or a memory nowadays?

Of course I exaggerate a bit - I'm certain that there are some renunciate yogis in the Jogye order. But they not likely to attain operational positions as you note.

Kirt


In my experience most Buddhist organizations will have a few yogis somewhere hidden away, but they're entirely out of the public spotlight for obvious reasons and probably will never be known or in a position of power. They are renunciates, largely unknown to the world and not interested in involving themselves in bureaucratic activities.

Nevertheless, they are such a small minority that they hardly count when evaluating circumstances of Buddhist communities.

_________________
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog) Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog) Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog) Dharma Depository (Site)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 5:45 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 4612
Location: Baltimore, MD
Huseng wrote:
In my experience most Buddhist organizations will have a few yogis somewhere hidden away, but they're entirely out of the public spotlight for obvious reasons and probably will never be known or in a position of power. They are renunciates, largely unknown to the world and not interested in involving themselves in bureaucratic activities.

Nevertheless, they are such a small minority that they hardly count when evaluating circumstances of Buddhist communities.


The candles are about to be blown out. Renunciate yogis need to take a more proactive stance in order to change their environment and organizations.

Kirt

_________________
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 5:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Posts: 5986
Location: Taiwan
kirtu wrote:
The candles are about to be blown out. Renunciate yogis need to take a more proactive stance in order to change their environment and organizations.

Kirt


Well there have been some who have done this. Master Sheng Yen was in solitary retreat for six years before going out, teaching, reforming and building up Dharma Drum Mountain. Ajahn Brahm is another good example of a yogi who has also has taken up a position of leadership and even formed a new community.

_________________
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog) Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog) Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog) Dharma Depository (Site)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 6:29 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
kirtu wrote:
The candles are about to be blown out. Renunciate yogis need to take a more proactive stance in order to change their environment and organizations.
That's pretty difficult for them to do considering they are normally far, far away from luxury hotels, tobacco stores and the company of gamblers! I think historically renunciate yogis have always been the minority in religious organisations (of any demoniation).
:namaste:

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am
Posts: 821
Living it up 8-)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group