the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 11, 2012 8:28 am

saltspring wrote:This issue has always been a huge problem for me. I agree with Namdrol that eating meat that is grass fed, and not raised in a factory feedlot is ethicaly ok.
Why? I mean the animal is still be raised to be slaughtered in order to fulfil your atachment to the taste of flesh. :shrug: Environmentally it may be better but ethically???
Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen theoretically rejects the distinction between sentient and non-sentient.
Really? So rocks also have Buddha nature according to Dzogchen and are capable of attaining awareness of their true nature?
Infinite wrote:It feels at this point vegetarians are just stretching for something to hold onto in order to maintain a moral high ground of their own construction.
I am a vegetarian because I believe it is a compassionate act to not eat the flesh of sentient beings, not because I feel it makes me more compassionate then you. Your statement seems to betray an inferiority complex possibly brought on by a sense that maybe, just maybe, vegetarianism is actually a valid option. I don't judge ominvores, but I am certainly getting sick of people putting the boot into an action that, at the very least, may well constitute refraining from causing harm.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Infinite » Fri May 11, 2012 8:43 am

Oh God now shitty pop psychology? I didn't realize the Dharma was full of such judgmental dogmatic followers. Honestly I think I am done with this board with nutters going on about conspiracies and passive-aggressive pseudo-psychology I have had about my fill. Honestly some of you people are utterly unbelievable. At least it has shown me that the same judgmental people who annoyed me in Fundamentalist Christianity are alive and well in Buddhism too. Maybe Buddhism isn't for me afterall since I'm not a judgmental prick. Thanks for the "enlightening" responses and general douchebaggery.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Tree » Fri May 11, 2012 8:52 am

Infinite wrote:Oh God now shitty pop psychology? I didn't realize the Dharma was full of such judgmental dogmatic followers.


Welcome to Westernized Buddhism! Enjoy your stay!
I personally find that periods of withdrawal from Westernized Buddhist forums is essential to my growth and mental health.

Gassho! :namaste:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 11, 2012 9:02 am

Infinite wrote:Oh God now shitty pop psychology? I didn't realize the Dharma was full of such judgmental dogmatic followers. Honestly I think I am done with this board with nutters going on about conspiracies and passive-aggressive pseudo-psychology I have had about my fill. Honestly some of you people are utterly unbelievable. At least it has shown me that the same judgmental people who annoyed me in Fundamentalist Christianity are alive and well in Buddhism too. Maybe Buddhism isn't for me afterall since I'm not a judgmental prick. Thanks for the "enlightening" responses and general douchebaggery.
That's it! Spit out all the venom! Bring it on! :twothumbsup:

Now take a good, long, hard look at what is the source of your reaction. Can you see it? It's called ego!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri May 11, 2012 9:13 am

Infinite wrote:Oh God now shitty pop psychology? I didn't realize the Dharma was full of such judgmental dogmatic followers. Honestly I think I am done with this board with nutters going on about conspiracies and passive-aggressive pseudo-psychology I have had about my fill. Honestly some of you people are utterly unbelievable. At least it has shown me that the same judgmental people who annoyed me in Fundamentalist Christianity are alive and well in Buddhism too. Maybe Buddhism isn't for me afterall since I'm not a judgmental prick. Thanks for the "enlightening" responses and general douchebaggery.


:rolling:

:rolling:

Oh man. Someone in a fury being judgemental about someone else and then denying being judgemental.

Guess the anger management classes failed then? :rolling:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Tara » Fri May 11, 2012 10:40 am

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby mindyourmind » Fri May 11, 2012 11:27 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
saltspring wrote:This issue has always been a huge problem for me. I agree with Namdrol that eating meat that is grass fed, and not raised in a factory feedlot is ethicaly ok.
Why? I mean the animal is still be raised to be slaughtered in order to fulfil your atachment to the taste of flesh. :shrug: Environmentally it may be better but ethically???
Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen theoretically rejects the distinction between sentient and non-sentient.
Really? So rocks also have Buddha nature according to Dzogchen and are capable of attaining awareness of their true nature?
Infinite wrote:It feels at this point vegetarians are just stretching for something to hold onto in order to maintain a moral high ground of their own construction.
I am a vegetarian because I believe it is a compassionate act to not eat the flesh of sentient beings, not because I feel it makes me more compassionate then you. Your statement seems to betray an inferiority complex possibly brought on by a sense that maybe, just maybe, vegetarianism is actually a valid option. I don't judge ominvores, but I am certainly getting sick of people putting the boot into an action that, at the very least, may well constitute refraining from causing harm.
:namaste:



Well said, young man :twothumbsup:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 11, 2012 12:37 pm

Nemo wrote:
Look at the price tag of your organic food next time you are at the store. Are you going to tell me land is more productive specifically in calories per acre using organic practices?



Yes, actually it is.

Then wouldn't everyone do it?


It's a rigged game, with a long history that goes back to the 18th century. Fundamentally, the land use patterns of Southern planters became dominant in the wheat and corn growing regions of the US, and the Northen practices of restorative husbandry fell by the wayside.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 11, 2012 12:45 pm

gregkavarnos wrote: I mean the animal is still be raised to be slaughtered in order to fulfil your atachment to the taste of flesh. :shrug: Environmentally it may be better but ethically???



When meat is available I eat it. When it isn't I don't. It is pretty simple.

I already pointed out I do not eat meat if it is impure in any of three ways.

When practitioners consume meat with a method, then there is benefit.

Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen theoretically rejects the distinction between sentient and non-sentient.
Really? So rocks also have Buddha nature according to Dzogchen and are capable of attaining awareness of their true nature?


Everything is made out of rigpa.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nighthawk » Fri May 11, 2012 12:52 pm

Infinite wrote:Oh God now shitty pop psychology? I didn't realize the Dharma was full of such judgmental dogmatic followers. Honestly I think I am done with this board with nutters going on about conspiracies and passive-aggressive pseudo-psychology I have had about my fill. Honestly some of you people are utterly unbelievable. At least it has shown me that the same judgmental people who annoyed me in Fundamentalist Christianity are alive and well in Buddhism too. Maybe Buddhism isn't for me afterall since I'm not a judgmental prick. Thanks for the "enlightening" responses and general douchebaggery.


Even the well educated are fools suffering from delusions, passions, attachment to views etc.

Being Buddhist does not make one automatically enlightened.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 11, 2012 1:04 pm

practitioner wrote:Butcher ---> Purchaser = bad karma
Butcher ---> Market ---> Purchaser = no problem


The argument is, and it is the Buddha's argument, recall, that meat that was not slaughtered for you specifically, that you have not seen slaughtered, and did not request slaughtered is pure. In case someone feels this is merely a Hinayāna argument, let me also remind you that the Madhyamaka author Bhavaviveka also follows the same argument. Shantideva of course is well known for arguing against meat eating.

While it is true that the lower tantras instruct us that to be vegetarian -- tantras like Hevajra instruct us in the opposite fashion.

So, again, it all depends on what you personally want to practice.

I am a Dzogchen Community practitioner, therefore I practice according to that tradition. I believe that refusing to eat meat is a refusal to extend one's compassion.

In the end, we are all food. Get used to it.

N
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Fri May 11, 2012 1:51 pm

practitioner wrote:No, your argument is that as long as there is a middle man between you and the butcher your hands are clean, that is nonsense.
Butcher ---> Purchaser = bad karma
Butcher ---> Market ---> Purchaser = no problem


Okay, what about this?

practitioner----> pays taxes to maintain highway----> meat truck depends on highway to deliver meat----> practitioner gets bad karma

In a completely interconnected existence, how many degrees of separation are needed before you are free of bad karma?
It's ridiculous.

If you kill an animal directly, you begin the process of separation (of the elements of the body and of the "consciousness" of the animal from those combined elements). That's the point. After an animal has been killed, where is the 'self' of that animal? In the muscle? in the bone? in the shank or shoulder?

It is only the mistaken view of the animal that causes the experience of its existence and thus the pain it suffers from clinging to the elements of the physical body.
Once the physical body begins separation, the mind may still cling to it for a short time.

But when you buy meat at the meat store, whatever "being" once lived in that meat already moved out of that house long ago. There is no karma from buying or eating this meat, except the karma of one's own "self" preservation.

The fact that buying meat keeps the butcher industry going is an important consideration, but is a totally different problem.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Bhusuku » Fri May 11, 2012 2:31 pm

Namdrol wrote:The Hevajra tantra states however "Those who eat meat have compassion."


I'm not very interested in entering this 80-page debate, but I'm curious about one thing: I've seen this quote from the Hevajratantra quite often when it comes to discussions like this one, however, I've always seen only this particular quote from this particular tantra, which leads me to the question if the Hevajratantra is the only one with this perspective on eating meat. It would be interesting to know how many (higher) tantras are in favor of eating meat (of course in the context of nutrition, and not ganapujas, etc.) versus the number of tantras that speak out against eating meat.

And are there any references on this subject in Dzogchen tantras? I'm curious about this because I find it a little strange that two of the greatest living Dzogchen masters - Norbu Rinpoche & Chatral Rinpoche - seem to have conflicting views on this subject.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 11, 2012 2:36 pm

Namdrol wrote:When meat is available I eat it. When it isn't I don't. It is pretty simple.

I already pointed out I do not eat meat if it is impure in any of three ways.

When practitioners consume meat with a method, then there is benefit.
Dear N. my question was directed to saltspring (of course feel free to answer anyway, but I'd like saltspring to answer too) and the question was: how is eating grass fed beef more ethical given that (for me) the issue is the purposeful killing of a sentient being and not the carbon imprints related to how they are raised?
Everything is made out of rigpa.
Isn't this a case of considering butter to be milk?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby saltspring » Fri May 11, 2012 3:50 pm

Hi Greg

Good question. I don't really have a great response. I just feel if I raise my own meat, I actualy eat less meat in the long run. I see the process and know directly that killing for food is a big deal. If there is bad karma to be had it should be mine not fobbed off to some butcher and then my meat comes with a clean bill of karma? Maybe thats the Buddhist teaching and from what Ive seen on this thread and on Dhamma Wheel it is, but it doesn't feel right to me. So I think I am in a slow evolution to being a vegetarian; right now I have kids and I feel that meat is part of a healthy diet and I want to know the source from where it comes from, perhaps when they get older we as a family can make the switch. Anyway thanks for your posts and others it really is helping me sort out some issues.

Chris (saltspring)
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 11, 2012 4:35 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Everything is made out of rigpa.
Isn't this a case of considering butter to be milk?
:namaste:


No.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 11, 2012 4:51 pm

Namdrol wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Everything is made out of rigpa.
Isn't this a case of considering butter to be milk?
:namaste:


No.
Care to elucidate?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 11, 2012 5:11 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:But when you buy meat at the meat store, whatever "being" once lived in that meat already moved out of that house long ago. There is no karma from buying or eating this meat...



This is also Bhavaviveka's perspective.

The truth is that Christians, Moslems, Jews, and Secularists will never stop eating meat. They will never stop raising animals for food. If practitioners refuse to eat meat, they are refusing to create a good cause for the animal whose flesh they are eating.

There is no need to suppose we must therefore decide to eat every kind of dead creature and so on. We can work within the convention of what are considered food animals in our culture and society, i.e. poultry, beef, pork, lamb, goat, venison, wild game, fish and shellfish. It is also ok to enjoy the taste and the flavor of these kinds of foods. We have sense organs, we should enjoy what we eat. We should also be aware, we should not be blind to suffering. Also when we eat a salad, or a tomato, we have to be aware of the suffering the production of that tomato or lettuce, or head of broccoli engenders. When we pick a tomato, we are also picking someone else's food, the food of another creature. When we eat a strawberry, we are stealing it from some bird, chipmonk or insect. When we buy mass produced vegetables in a market, how many creatures died to produce that? When we use sesame oil to cook our vegetarian meal, how many millions of small creatures were crushed to death to extract that sesame oil? The idea that being a vegetarian is less harmful to sentient beings than being a meat eater is deluded. You can, for example, in the same cycle of treasure texts find one text that says you must avoid meat, and in another text from the same cycle, instructions that one must eat meat.

If you have a specific reason for being a vegetarian, for example, you are doing chulen (rasāyana) practice -- then you must avoid all foods that give rise to the three humors and focus only on sattvic foods, essence foods, such as ghee, honey, rice, fruits, etc. You cannot eat garlic, onion, radishes, etc., roots in general. This also has to do with how to cleanse the digestive pathways in the formation of the various tissues of the body. Even so, there are tantras that identify meat as rasāyana, chulen. So meat can even be used for chulen practice.

If one is a Dzogchen pracititioner, there are no rules about what one may eat.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri May 11, 2012 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 11, 2012 5:13 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Care to elucidate?



The five outer course elements are made out of the five lights of the wisdom of rigpa. Everything (all sentient beings including their consciousness as well as everything we consider inanimate) is made out of the five elements.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 11, 2012 5:18 pm

Thank you for the :offtopic: explanation!
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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