Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby Andrew108 » Thu May 10, 2012 7:08 am

We all like attending teachings and planning for courses. We also like it when our teachers plan something 'advanced' for us to learn. I guess we like the idea of progress.
I'm wondering in a sincere way if we are not actually fooling ourselves?
If we accept the base as the path then who actually progresses? Isn't there a point when the lineage 'methods' get collected and conceptually held on to?
I'm not doubting the profundity of the methods, but could the wish to 'get' Dzogchen or to 'be' in Dzogchen not be something that obscures? Isn't the idea of 'progress' within Dzogchen or even the idea of a 'continuation' of realization falsely drawn? And in that sense an obscuration?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

krodha
Posts: 2125
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby krodha » Fri May 11, 2012 1:32 am


User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 11, 2012 3:42 am





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
tomamundsen
Posts: 1615
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby tomamundsen » Fri May 11, 2012 3:49 am


krodha
Posts: 2125
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby krodha » Fri May 11, 2012 4:17 am


User avatar
Lhug-Pa
Posts: 1429
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri May 11, 2012 5:29 am

Well Rushen practices are Menngagde, right?

Is Menngagde, and its various divisions (excepting the highest division of Menngagde perhaps), considered part of Atiyoga as the Ninth Vehicle of Buddhism? And then the Dzogchen (which is still Buddhism) that is outside of the Nine Yanas does not even consider Semde, Longde, or even Menngagde (or does not consider the Outer, Inner, and Secret divisions of the latter)?

Excellent posts here, by the way (including Magnus' post below). :applause:
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Fri May 11, 2012 5:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3950
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby heart » Fri May 11, 2012 5:42 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby Andrew108 » Fri May 11, 2012 5:51 am

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3950
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby heart » Fri May 11, 2012 8:42 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

muni
Posts: 4249
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby muni » Fri May 11, 2012 8:56 am

Our nature cannot be improved, that is idea. We get it or we get it not. For me lacking confidence in that simple nature and returning to the idea that MY thoughts are having the method to prove/improve, or find it, is a big mistake, since in thoughts we fall back in dual. Confidence to let thoughts just be nature, arising and subsiding by themselves. Chasing behind thoughts is like a dog chasing behind its' tail, that is what I am doing here.

Devotion in Latin isn't better.
Since in devotion the solid subject-solid object, solid me and solid master is melting and no thoughts are chased.
So is there said, anyway.
This post by Phantom59: Self Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness by Padma

:namaste:

Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby Andrew108 » Fri May 11, 2012 9:10 am

For Magnus -
I see it more in terms of 'collapse' than 'continuation'. So in that sense I don't really see the progress but deal with the consequences of a collapse.
When the structure of a form is no longer seen or needed or established - then there is a collapse - a falling into itself. So often dualistic mind is assuming that within every form there is a structure - an essence or foundation. Maybe this is what dualistic mind is actually - this willingness to reify form by giving it a structural foundation where none exists.
Even if we see forms as 'mere appearance' we can still impute a structure to the 'mere appearance (this self looking at non-self as asunneversets pointed out). There is still an assumption that something (energy for example) is happening - that rainbows however illusory still have a 'something'. An assumption that meditation continues or the natural state continues and needs to continue.
So yeah collapse rather than progress and dealing with the consequences of all the bones being taken out of the body so to speak.

For Muni -
Devotion is love meeting love.
Academic study is like loving someone who doesn't love you back.
Contrived meditation is like someone loves you but you feel uncomfortable with it.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

muni
Posts: 4249
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby muni » Fri May 11, 2012 9:20 am

:hug: not compounded.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3950
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby heart » Fri May 11, 2012 2:54 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

krodha
Posts: 2125
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby krodha » Fri May 11, 2012 4:46 pm


Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby Andrew108 » Fri May 11, 2012 5:22 pm

Yes we have to stay with the consequence of the collapse. That forms don't disappear. That Dzogchen vision has no structure. That this 'no-structure' is all-inclusive.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Yontan
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:57 am

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby Yontan » Mon May 14, 2012 4:58 am

It's kind of a self-correcting problem assuming you're working with a qualified lineage holder.
If you catch yourself thinking you are improving upon your nature - before your teacher corrects you - kudos.
If you see the qualities of compassion and broader view increasing and those of self-concern and efforts at hope and fear decreasing, wonderful.
Increase good, decrease bad, know all appearances to be like an illusion. That's not dzogchen but it's damn fine Dharma.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3950
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby heart » Mon May 14, 2012 5:29 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

muni
Posts: 4249
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby muni » Mon May 14, 2012 7:24 am


Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby Andrew108 » Mon May 14, 2012 10:30 am

Extract from Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche's Dzogchen in Everyday Life:

''All phenomena are completely new and fresh and absolutely unique,
entirely free from all concepts of past, present, and future- as if
experienced in another dimension of time; this is absolute
spontaneity.

The continual stream of new discovery and fresh revelation and
inspiration that arises at every moment is the manifestation of the
eternal youth of the living dharma and its wonders; splendor and
spontaneity is the play or dance aspect of the universe as guru.

One should learn to see everyday life as a mandala in which one is at
the center, and be free of the bias and prejudice of past conditioning,
present desires, and hopes and expectations about the future.

The figures of the mandala are the day-to-day objects of one's life
experiences moving in the great dance of the play of the universe, the
symbolism by which the guru reveals profound and ultimate meaning and
significance. Therefore, be natural and spontaneous; accept and learn
from everything.

See the comical, amusing side of initiating situations. In meditation,
see through the illusion of past, present, and future. The past is but a
present memory or condition, the future but a present projection, and
the present itself vanishes before it can be grasped.

One should put an end to conceptions about meditation and free oneself
from memories of the past. Each moment of meditation is completely
unique and full of potentiality of new discovery so one is incapable of
judging meditation by past experience or by theory.''

SO if you get this then that's that.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Dzogchen and the concept of progress....

Postby Andrew108 » Fri May 25, 2012 7:17 am

I've been reviewing this thread in light of the huge Dzogchen and Buddhism thread. During the Dzogchen and Buddhism thread I came round to the view that contrivance is really important. Contrived practice and the notion of progress plays really well with the Dzogchen view. Just to have Dzogchen by itself with no progress to be made or just to be interested in 'my primordial potentiality' seems impoverished and more like an obstacle. We need these conceptual practices and ideas of progress because otherwise we might get 'lost' in Dzogchen. It's not right to only want the essence of the teachings.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 22 guests