Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:03 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 72 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm
Posts: 1428
Sönam wrote:
In addition, Rinpoché also says that if you did'nt realize the nature of your mind, there is no real sens to do Guru Yoga...


Also, if this is the case; does it suggest that a person not having unmistakably discovered the Natural State, also means when Lungs are being given that such a person does not actually receive them?


And so my previous post doesn't get lost in the mix:



Lhug-Pa wrote:
Thanks Sönam, that would be good to know.

If I'm not mistaken, Rinpoche has implied that through the practice of Guru Yoga we can discover our Real Nature, that is, even if we don't fully discover during the Direct Introduction.

Although maybe what you've said here does not suggest otherwise. But only that if one didn't discover the Nature of Mind, then there is no Samaya. In other words, even if the candidate did not fully discover during the Direct Introduction, the seed of the Transmission is still planted so to speak, and so then one can either go on to keep trying to discover our Real Nature or not, without having any mandatory commitment to do so; but then as soon as one does discover the Nature of Mind, we at that point do have the Samaya to keep going on the Path until complete Liberation, yes?


Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Thu May 10, 2012 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm
Posts: 1565
Lhug-Pa wrote:
Sönam wrote:
In addition, Rinpoché also says that if you did'nt realize the nature of your mind, there is no real sens to do Guru Yoga...


Also, if this is the case; does it suggest that a person not having unmistakably discovered the Natural State, also means when Lungs are being given that such a person does not actually receive them?

No, you still get the lung.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm
Posts: 1850
Sönam wrote:
In addition, Rinpoché also says that if you did'nt realize the nature of your mind, there is no real sens to do Guru Yoga ... therefore you have no samaya just because you listen to a teaching.

Sonam

Uh when did he say that? It doesn't make any sense to me...

_________________
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:02 am
Posts: 683
I agree, I had the sense that even if you didn't recognize rigpa during transmission, guru yoga is the main practice by which you can recognize later on your own.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Posts: 1999
Location: France
Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote:
In addition, Rinpoché also says that if you did'nt realize the nature of your mind, there is no real sens to do Guru Yoga ... therefore you have no samaya just because you listen to a teaching.

Sonam

Uh when did he say that? It doesn't make any sense to me...


I could found my reference back. I went through many documents, but could'nt found it back ... I'm still looking after it.
Nevertheless, because of the particularity of the experience of the realization of the nature of the mind as it is transmited by the Guru, Guru Yoga take only his complete sense after one realize it ... and there the commitment/samaya start to have a real sense. Before it's just a question of faith, not fact.
So it makes sense to me.

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm
Posts: 1850
Ah I think I get it now. What he probably said is that the real meaning/sense of GY is knowing the nature of mind or something to that effect. That is not the same as saying there is no sense in doing GY if you don't know the nature of mind. I've heard him say similar as the former many times but never the latter. I think that's what you're trying to say too but maybe it got lost in translation. :smile:

_________________
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:29 pm
Posts: 715
Location: Athens - GR
Rinpoche will give tomorrow a Lecture at University of HongKong.
This is a good opportunity for inviting the people who might be interested in the teaching without any risk of breaking samayas etc.
On Tuesday, May 15th, 2012 from 7pm to 9pm (GTM+8) there will be webcast of Rinpoche's public lecture at the Chinese University of Hongkong.

_________________
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm
Posts: 1428
It was mentioned in another thread about making the connection to the Guru via webcast (or as Pema Rigdzin has often said, the connection is not actually made through the webcast itself, but by being in the same moment as the Guru; the webcast itself having the same function as speakers and a microphone) and not always being able to verify if the connection was made....

And after reading more of The Supreme Source (Kunjed Gyalpo), particularly the part about who are fit vessels to receive the Dzogchen teaching and who is not fit to receive it; I wonder if everyone who attends the webcasts with the intention to receive Direct Introduction, actually makes the connection. I don't doubt that one can make the connection via webcast; however what happens if someone is unsure and has no means to meet Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche in person in order to verify if they have made the connection or not?

If they think they made the connection but didn't, and then try to practice, that could cause some potentially serious problems.

If they did actually make the connection, yet they're not totally sure if they made the connection, and therefore give up on even practicing the Rushens out of doubt, then they would be breaking their Samaya by giving up on practicing, that is if they drop the practice of Dzogchen altogether.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm
Posts: 1428
In thinking about it more, I wonder if the Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra was written during a time when the criteria for who is allowed to receive Dzogchen teachings was different.

As in perhaps the Dharmapalas have made some changes to the said criteria, due to the fact that times are different. For example, someone had mentioned that Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche was specifically given permission by the Dharmapalas to unrestrictedly publish a specific Dzogchen book that would otherwise be restricted.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm
Posts: 1967
I've been delighted at how open the webcasts have been, and how generously the lungs etc are given.

I think the open webcasts will enable any person who is sensitive to make a personal connection and delve deeper, and enable those who don't 'get it' to seek alternatives.


I don't know enough to guide anyone, but one person said to me that the Song of the Vajra made them feel queasy and that the feeling went from their head and throat down to their heart and then seemed to settle there and become pleasant. Now I thought that was great, but I could be wrong! LOL :)

_________________
Left


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm
Posts: 1428
Blue Garuda wrote:
I've been delighted at how open the webcasts have been, and how generously the lungs etc are given.


Same here. :)

It's just that in reading The Supreme Source, and other Dzogchen writings, I've gotten the impression that Dzogchen is not for everyone; and that if it's not for someone, then resolving what should be done about having received Dzogchen teachings only to find out that one lacks capacity, should be taken seriously.

But again, as I'd mentioned, times have changed; so maybe the criteria for who is a 'fit vessel' have also changed.

Anyway, that's an interesting experience of The Song of the Vajra. Can't say it's ever made me "queasy" lol (although maybe "queasy" has a different meaning in Britain than it does in America). Some of my experiences have ranged from "not much happening" to actually getting quite emotional.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm
Posts: 1428
Lhasa wrote:
Maybe it's not well known but both ChNN and Tenzin Rinpoche read their emails. If someone questions whether they've made the connection they can contact the teacher directly.


Some would maybe argue that how could a Lama know if you made the connection, via email? But I'll bet that they could have the capacity to know. ;)

Of course what is more important, is that we try to discover and know for ourselves; even though it's best to also try to verify with our Teacher somehow if we're not sure. :idea:

Blue Garuda, maybe your friend meant "queasy" as in getting a little choked up due to the emotions that can sometimes manifest.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:45 pm
Posts: 739
Location: Magga ~ Path to Liberation.
Quote:
Re: Who should attend DC webcast?


I'll attend though I'd rather be there in person and practice sitting.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1444
Wesley1982 wrote:
Quote:
Re: Who should attend DC webcast?


I'll attend though I'd rather be there in person and practice sitting.


Well it's happening right now!
http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast/video.php


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:39 am
Posts: 41
You said in this thread that we connect even if we don't FULLY discover during the Direct Introduction. What about situation, when someone received DI many times, but didn't discover or feel anything at all? It has no value then? Or there is some seed that enables us to connect to transmission and discover?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:56 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm
Posts: 3142
Jacob wrote:
You said in this thread that we connect even if we don't FULLY discover during the Direct Introduction. What about situation, when someone received DI many times, but didn't discover or feel anything at all? It has no value then? Or there is some seed that enables us to connect to transmission and discover?


Good question, it certainly happens that way.

/magnus

_________________
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm
Posts: 1428
In today's webcast Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche clearly stated that if we are not sure if we discovered our Real Nature during the Direct Introduction, that we should not worry, because if we intend to receive it, then we will receive it. So instead of worrying about it, we should have confidence in the Transmission, practice Guru Yoga, and apply other methods (Rushen, Semdzin, the Song of the Vajra, etc.) until doubts are removed (Second Statement of Garab Dorje).

I'm a poor student, so sometime's when I read in Dzogchen writings about the qualifications that the student should have in order to qualify for receiving the Transmission, I see that many of those qualities are lacking in myself so I start to have doubts, despite the fact that the Dzogchen teachings have helped me in many ways. But since all qualities are already perfected in the Natural State, then we should do our best to discover that State and remain in the Natural State. :buddha1:

Because the only "poor student" is our ego who wants to be a "good student", right?


Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm
Posts: 2755
Jacob wrote:
You said in this thread that we connect even if we don't FULLY discover during the Direct Introduction. What about situation, when someone received DI many times, but didn't discover or feel anything at all? It has no value then? Or there is some seed that enables us to connect to transmission and discover?

Yes, that's the million dollar question. Fortunately ChNN answers it frequently. Rushens, Semdzins, the four contemplations from the Semde series are swift ways of discovering the natural state after direct introduction. So yes, there is great value in receiving oral transmission, symbolic transmission and direct transmission, even if you don't recognize instant presence at that moment. That is quite natural. Then, you practice adequately to discover it. If no matter what you do you can't discover it, then you should see the lama and try to understand what is failing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm
Posts: 2755
Lhug-Pa wrote:
In today's webcast Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche clearly stated that if we are not sure if we discovered our Real Nature during the Direct Introduction, that we should not worry, because if we intend to receive it, then we will receive it. So instead of worrying about it, we should have confidence in the Transmission and apply the methods (Rushen, Semdzin, the Song of the Vajra, etc.) until doubts are removed (Second Statement of Garab Dorje).

I'm a poor student, so sometime's when I read in Dzogchen writings about the qualifications that the student should have in order to qualify for receiving the Transmission, I see that many of those qualities are lacking in myself so I start to have doubts, despite the fact that the Dzogchen teachings have helped me in many ways. But since all qualities are already perfected in the Natural State, then we should do our best to discover that State and remain in the Natural State. :buddha1:

Because the only "poor student" is our ego who wants to be a "good student", right?

When you find one of the five qualities missing, you also know they are well beneath your grasp to achieve. It's just a matter of putting ourselves to it. They are not that difficult to achieve.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:39 am
Posts: 41
And what about Guru Yoga? Does making it before discovering rigpa has any value? I think it does (for example to establish some good connection to transmission) but after reading this thread i have some doubts.

Sonam wrote:
In addition, Rinpoché also says that if you did'nt realize the nature of your mind, there is no real sens to do Guru Yoga

Well, i think i heared exactlly opposite... :shrug:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 72 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group