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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:54 am 
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Astus wrote:
kirtu wrote:
In the article HE Tai Situpa basically said that he thought that something closer to mahasiddha practice would be taking place in the West.


Didn't notice that part. But that's good news, I guess.

Like, just something I've heard of, Keith Dowman's idea of the "urban yogi".


Authentic mahasiddha practice is great, but in the West, it's all to easy for people who lack discipline to fool themselves that they are following the path of the mahasiddhas. I'm sure many of you have encountered the foolish attitude I'm referring to.

"Hey, I'm such a great yogi that I don't need to meditate anymore. Hey, my hair is wild and cool, therefore I must be a mahasiddha. I can drink as much as I want to because my mind is undefilable!"

Self-deception is such an easy trap to fall into.


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:06 am 
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Luke wrote:
Self-deception is such an easy trap to fall into.


Many of us are taught from an early age to have self-confidence and "believe in ourselves" even if the actual abilities do not exist. So when ability is lacking, we're encouraged to fake it.

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:18 am 
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Huseng wrote:
Luke wrote:
Self-deception is such an easy trap to fall into.


Many of us are taught from an early age to have self-confidence and "believe in ourselves" even if the actual abilities do not exist. So when ability is lacking, we're encouraged to fake it.


But in this case we do in fact have the ability to attain perfect enlightenment. This may not manifest in this lifetime but as long as we determine to attain perfect enlightenment then it will work out eventually.

Kirt

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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:28 am 
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kirtu wrote:
Huseng wrote:
Luke wrote:
Self-deception is such an easy trap to fall into.


Many of us are taught from an early age to have self-confidence and "believe in ourselves" even if the actual abilities do not exist. So when ability is lacking, we're encouraged to fake it.


But in this case we do in fact have the ability to attain perfect enlightenment. This may not manifest in this lifetime but as long as we determine to attain perfect enlightenment then it will work out eventually.

Kirt



There is a difference between actually having an attainment of some sort and just faking it.

There are more than enough people on the internet thinking they're realized masters of zen.

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:33 am 
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Luke wrote:
Astus wrote:
kirtu wrote:
In the article HE Tai Situpa basically said that he thought that something closer to mahasiddha practice would be taking place in the West.


Didn't notice that part. But that's good news, I guess.

Like, just something I've heard of, Keith Dowman's idea of the "urban yogi".


Authentic mahasiddha practice is great, but in the West, it's all to easy for people who lack discipline to fool themselves that they are following the path of the mahasiddhas. I'm sure many of you have encountered the foolish attitude I'm referring to.

"Hey, I'm such a great yogi that I don't need to meditate anymore. Hey, my hair is wild and cool, therefore I must be a mahasiddha. I can drink as much as I want to because my mind is undefilable!"

Self-deception is such an easy trap to fall into.


Self-deception can be an easy trap. We need to be careful to be sure. But a mahasiddha is only a mahasiddha internally not externally. We won't see many Tilopa's in the future - even Trungpa Rinpoche was too much! However, HE Tai Situpa called for mahasiddha level realization in the article, not for some kind of ego fashion. And if along the way miracles (and as Tsongkhapa notes in "The Fundamental Teachings of Buddhism", what greater miracle is there than transforming one negative emotion) manifest, then so much the better.

Kirt

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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:39 am 
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Huseng wrote:
There is a difference between actually having an attainment of some sort and just faking it.


Certainly true - the story of the murderer who killed an Arhat and mimicked his teaching perfectly comes to mind (maybe not the best example in this context as the mimicked teaching actually resulted in some people becoming Arhats and then these Arhats realized that their teacher was actually a fake but the faker winds up in the hells).

Quote:
There are more than enough people on the internet thinking they're realized masters of zen.


Delusion is a problem but I don't think we have to so often throw up extreme examples. As long as people really sincerely try their best and keep practicing then things will naturally work out.

We also need to focus on our own practice and defilements and not worry about others so much (in this sense). We can only make decisions for ourselves not for others.

Kirt

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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:56 am 
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Luke wrote:
"Hey, I'm such a great yogi that I don't need to meditate anymore. Hey, my hair is wild and cool, therefore I must be a mahasiddha. I can drink as much as I want to because my mind is undefilable!"

Self-deception is such an easy trap to fall into.


Not too many deceptions can survive real tests - how about a tsok of urine and feces? While I don't think we will have any (or many) real Tilopa's this level of testing can bring people back to reality.

As Konchog Norbu notes on FB with a quote from Shechen Gyaltsap:

Quote:
"Now, by recognizing that appearances are the mind, the mind is empty, emptiness is nondual, and nonduality is self-liberating, one clears away all misconceptions about the outer, inner, secret, and absolute.

"However, this alone is not much help if you have not liberated your own mind into the absolute nature, just as ice, despite being water, does not function as water unless you melt it. So it is important to meditate with intense devotion."


So with the first part we can delude ourselves into believing that we have really actualized wisdom but with the second we can awaken honestly to the truth of our current practice and understanding and non-perfect compassion and get back to work.

Kirt

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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:42 am 
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kirtu wrote:
Jangchup Donden wrote:
I think this will happen in the west within my lifetime, if it hasn't happened already. I know of more than a few western Kagyu practitioners who are totally devoting their life to practice, as in life-long solitary retreat.


How are they able to do this?


They've found benefactors who have agreed to support their retreats.


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:26 pm 
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Just apply the practices as best you can and work with your situation and conditions. There are people that feel that they need to shut themselves off from family and so on, but this just creates problems later on. You each have to understand whats best for yourself and for others, then apply the teachings and practices as best you can. The ideas about east, west up down, in and out, and searching for perfect time and so on is really just red herring.


good luck.


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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:47 am 
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kirtu wrote:
As Konchog Norbu notes on FB with a quote from Shechen Gyaltsap:
Quote:
"Now, by recognizing that appearances are the mind, the mind is empty, emptiness is nondual, and nonduality is self-liberating, one clears away all misconceptions about the outer, inner, secret, and absolute.

"However, this alone is not much help if you have not liberated your own mind into the absolute nature, just as ice, despite being water, does not function as water unless you melt it. So it is important to meditate with intense devotion."


So with the first part we can delude ourselves into believing that we have really actualized wisdom but with the second we can awaken honestly to the truth of our current practice and understanding and non-perfect compassion and get back to work.


Yeah, that's a great quote.

May the kind lamas of the world continue to point out our flaws and give us advice until we attain the exalted level of the ancient siddhas!


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