the great vegetarian debate

[gregkavarnos]

I find that after watching these types of videos, I refrain from eating for about three days max then go back to same habit of meat eating as before watching it. Not really a permanent solution, but then again I have no intention currently to become a vegetarian.

Yes, well that's the problem with habits isn't it? They are easy to break, but only when we want to break them!

[Malcolm]

However, I think the most important point is that eating meat should be unacceptable from a Buddhist perspective and whatever it takes for anyone to reach that conclusion is fine by me.

There are many Buddhist perspectives, and often they stand in apparent contradiction to one another.

The common Mahāyāna perspective is that eating meat is unacceptable.

The Vajrayāna/Dzogchen perspective is that refusing to eat meat is a refusal to extend one's compassion. So one must decide what level one is going to practice at.

N

[practitioner]

The Vajrayāna/Dzogchen perspective is that refusing to eat meat is a refusal to extend one's compassion. So one must decide what level one is going to practice at.

N

Well there is no ONE Vajrayana perspective either. For example, I am from the Kagyu tradition and the Karmapa has given up meat and is now vegetarian. Does he not practice Vajrayana?? Here is a short excerpt from a transcript of a teaching on the subject.

"There are many great masters and very great realized beings in India and there have been many
great realized beings in Tibet also, but they are not saying, “I'm realized, therefore I can do
anything; I can eat meat and drink alcohol.” It's nothing like that. It should not be like that.
According to the Kagyupa school, we have to see what the great masters of the past, the past lamas
of Kagyupas, did and said about eating meat. The Drikung Shakpa [sp?] Rinpoche, master of
Drikungpa, said like this, “My students, whomever are eating or using meat and calling it tsokhor
or tsok, then these people are completely deserting me and going against the dharma.” I can't
explain each of these things, but he said that anybody that is using meat and saying it is something
good, this is completely against the dharma and against me and they completely have nothing to
do with dharma. He said it very, very strongly.
Other great masters also said this. And each of them said that if somebody eats meat and thinks
that it's allowed, you can't even dream like that because it is something that is never right and
never good. In some places it is said that if someone has a great method by which they can liberate
the being whose meat he eats, only then might that person eat it, according to the Vajrayana.
Otherwise, other than that, you cannot eat meat.
According to Karme Chakme Rinpoche, we talk about using the five meats and five amritas: if
someone is completely realized, then only can one eat meat. And then if you say that many things
are mentioned about this in the Vajrayana--in Vajrayana, lots of things are mentioned about the
five meats and five amritas, what is this? He said that that is only for the most advanced people.
For instance if you put some shit and some urine on the altar, it's very bad. We don't like it and we
feel like vomiting."

So if you are advanced enough to turn shit and piss into an offering then fine, eat meat and call it tsok.

[plwk]

I wonder what is Shingon's stand on vegetarianism...

[practitioner]

I should add, from the same teaching on vegetarianism

"any monastery that belongs to Kamtsang Kagyu, the monastery
kitchen cannot and should not make any food with meat. And if you bring meat and cook it in the
monastery kitchen then that means that you are not taking me as your teacher, you are not
belonging to Karma Kagyu. And there is nothing to discuss about that. That's finished. That is very
important."
-Karmapa

Doesn't get much clearer than that...

[Josef]

Doesn't get much clearer than that...

That perspective is clear and it should be adopted if the Karmapa is your teacher. Take his advice.
Others among us have received different advice from our gurus that we apply.
As you mentioned before, there is not one perspective on the issue.

[Malcolm]

The Vajrayāna/Dzogchen perspective is that refusing to eat meat is a refusal to extend one's compassion. So one must decide what level one is going to practice at.

N

Well there is no ONE Vajrayana perspective either. For example, I am from the Kagyu tradition and the Karmapa has given up meat and is now vegetarian. Does he not practice Vajrayana?? Here is a short excerpt from a transcript of a teaching on the subject.

He is setting a good example for those who prefer a more Mahāyāna approach to this issue. But I don't consider his point of view a Vajrayāna approach. It is a lower tantra/common Mahāyāna perspective.

You will also recall that Milarepa was a meat eater, as was Marpa, etc.

[PadmaVonSamba]

I don't eat meat, but I eat things that are made out of meat.
.
.
.

[practitioner]

There is a great story about Milarepa and a yak's horn, I'm sure you have probably heard it. Milarepa and one of his disciples (I believe it was Rechungpa) were walking across a field that was very barren and had no trees or caves or any other form of shelter nearby when a strong hail storm approached. The disciple didn't know what to do and was pummeled by the hail. Milarepa on the other hand simply took refuge from the storm by shrinking his body and taking refuge in the hollowed out horn of a yak. Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche relates this story in his book "What Makes You Not a Buddhist" saying very specifically this story is not an allegory but is to be taken literally.

My point being, Milarepa was a Buddha, capable of extraordinary feats due to his complete realization of emptiness. So the fact that Milarepa or Marpa or any other highly realized practitioner ate meat is of no concern to me because they of course realized the true emptiness of that action.

On the other hand i refer back to the quote about offering shit and urine, if you can do that fine. There are stories of great yogis who can eat shit and drink urine and turn in into delicious food and drink. How many people who eat meat claiming to do it with a Dzogchen/Vajrayana view of eating the meat of sentient beings out of compassion really have the realization to actually do it? How many are just using the terms Dzogchen and Vajrayana to justify their own attachments to eating meat?

[Nighthawk]

I find that after watching these types of videos, I refrain from eating for about three days max then go back to same habit of meat eating as before watching it. Not really a permanent solution, but then again I have no intention currently to become a vegetarian.

Yes, well that's the problem with habits isn't it? They are easy to break, but only when we want to break them!

True say. I only manage to stop eating meat for that long out of sheer disgust. I admit I lack compassion like a typical bonbu.

[asunthatneversets]

Chatral Rinpoche is a dzogchen master and is a big advocate of vegetarianism...

from wikipedia:

"A lay yogi, he is also greatly concerned with maintaining strict discipline in the context of the Dzogchen view. He is especially well known for his advocacy of vegetarianism and his yearly practice of ransoming the lives of thousands of animals in India".

[greentara]

Nisargadatta Maharaj says "Vegetarianism is a worthy cause but not the most important"
I guess he's pointing to stilling the mind which overrides all other 'isms'

[Malcolm]

My point being, Milarepa was a Buddha, capable of extraordinary feats due to his complete realization of emptiness. So the fact that Milarepa or Marpa or any other highly realized practitioner ate meat is of no concern to me because they of course realized the true emptiness of that action.

Well, no, Milarepa ate meat as a matter of course in his life, both before and after his awakening.

How many people who eat meat claiming to do it with a Dzogchen/Vajrayana view of eating the meat of sentient beings out of compassion really have the realization to actually do it? How many are just using the terms Dzogchen and Vajrayana to justify their own attachments to eating meat?

It does not require "realization", it merely requires a method, mindfulness and compassion.

N

[Malcolm]

Chatral Rinpoche is a dzogchen master and is a big advocate of vegetarianism...

Yes, that is correct. He is setting a good example for those who do not have the capacity to employ methods.

As for me, I follow Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's advice.

But frankly, being a vegetarian is not a superior moral choice. If you are a vegetarian for reasons of health it is one thing. But vegetarianism as moral campaign is deluded. Millions of animals large and small die to bring vegetables and grains to our plates every day. But over and over again vegetarians justify this claiming that the purpose of such agriculture is not to kill animals, so therefore, they morally excuse themselves from culpability in the death of countless millions of creatures.

We all live in a world where our decisions negatively impact the lives of other creatures all the time. We drive a car for 20 minutes, how many bugs are smashed on our windshields? I see a serious myopia on the part of vegetarians who excuse themselves from the harm they cause insects and mammals through driving, who excuse themselves from the environmental degradation caused by their use of oil, who excuse themselves from their contributions to the effluent stream much of which is simply dumped into the ocean, and who then excortiate in a high handed fashion people who meat.

Frankly, eating grassfed meat is far better for the environment and ecosystems in the world than being a consumer of soy products. Soy is a very environmentally damaging crop (http://civileats.com/2009/01/27/a-vegan ... erspective). Grass fed cattle who are moved from fresh pasture to pasture actually sequester carbon and rebuild the local environment becase of the interaction between cattle and pasture. Joel Salatin writes in his recent The Sheer Ecstacy of Being a Lunatic Farmer (2010, Polyface):

There you have it: mob stocking herbivarious solar conversion lignified carbon sequestration fertilization. If every farmer in America practiced this prehistoric system, in fewer than ten years we would sequester all the carbon that has been emitted since the beginning of the industrial age. It's really that simple. One of the most environmentally-enhancing things you can do is to eat grass finished beef. That sequesters more carbon than soybeans, or corn, or any other annual. And yet how many radical environmentalists have turned to soy milk and veganism in order to be earth friendly. (page 28)

Finally, in the end, being an eater of meat does not make one less capable of realizing the meaning of the teachings, and being a vegetarian does not make one more capable of realizing the teachings.

That is the bottom line.

N

[practitioner]

But vegetarianism as moral campaign is deluded.

Some might consider accusing people who disagree with you are following a lower path and refusing to extend their compassion is "deluded"...

[Josef]

But vegetarianism as moral campaign is deluded.

Some might consider accusing people who disagree with you are following a lower path and refusing to extend their compassion is "deluded"...

This is why the vegetarian campaign in deluded.
Your assertion that those who eat meat are not extending their compassion is full of assumptions and it is ignorant of the conditions and the path of those whom you are asserting do not extend their compassion.
I rarely eat meat but when I do it is for the very purpose of extending compassion.

This does not mean that you or HH Karmapa are deluded by any means. The assertion of a higher moral ground is what is deluded.

[Pero]

I rarely eat meat but when I do it is for the very purpose of extending compassion.

When I read this I got this pic in my head:

[Josef]

I rarely eat meat but when I do it is for the very purpose of extending compassion.

When I read this I got this pic in my head:

Oh man, I wish I was clever enough to have thought of that when I wrote that post.

[gad rgyangs]

is karma intent? according to Buddhism, yes.

when one follows a vegetarian diet, is there intent to harm or kill sentient beings? no.

in order to eat meat, must there first be a deliberate intent to kill the sentient being before eating it? yes.

if you purchase meat, either in a store or restaurant, you are, in effect, paying someone to kill the animal for you, so the intent is there just as much as if you killed the animal yourself.

[Josef]

in order to eat meat, must there first be a deliberate intent to kill the sentient being before eating it? yes.
.

Maybe for the hunter or slaughterhouse worker but not the average eater.
To kill and to eat are very different acts.
The assertion that buying meat is karmically the same as killing is absolutely insane.