Sanskrit vocalic "r"

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Sanskrit vocalic "r"

Postby Sherlock » Wed May 09, 2012 3:28 pm

Should Sanskrit vocalic "r" be pronounced as a plain "r" or as "ri"?
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Re: Sanskrit vocalic "r"

Postby Jinzang » Wed May 09, 2012 6:30 pm

Pronunciation of the Sanskrit vowels.
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Re: Sanskrit vocalic "r"

Postby Sherlock » Thu May 10, 2012 3:12 am

That site seems to have removed the recordings for both long and short "r" although I assume they used the "ri" pronunciation since he contrasts it with the plain "r" sound. Anyway, what I actually want to know is if there are still places in India where they use a plain "r" and whether Sakya Pandita mentioned it.
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Re: Sanskrit vocalic "r"

Postby Huifeng » Thu May 10, 2012 3:27 am

Sherlock wrote:Should Sanskrit vocalic "r" be pronounced as a plain "r" or as "ri"?


There are numerous forms of Sanskrit pronunciation.
See what works.

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Re: Sanskrit vocalic "r"

Postby Sherlock » Mon May 28, 2012 4:00 pm

I just watched an old video of ChNN explaining the ganapuja and he pronounced "amrta". :namaste:
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Re: Sanskrit vocalic "r"

Postby vinodh » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:54 pm

It ought to be pronounced between 'ri' and 'ru'.

Some Indians pronounce it as outright /ru/. But its not correct.

So, the correct modern realization of vocalic "r" would be something between /ri/ and /ru/ - neither /i/ nor /u/ but a pronunciation bordering the two.

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sadāśāntiṁ vibhāvitvā gacchāmi śaraṇaṁ hyaham

Neither a person nor the aggregates, the Buddha, is knowledge free from [evil] outflows
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Re: Sanskrit vocalic "r"

Postby Sherlock » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:39 pm

vinodh wrote:It ought to be pronounced between 'ri' and 'ru'.

Some Indians pronounce it as outright /ru/. But its not correct.

So, the correct modern realization of vocalic "r" would be something between /ri/ and /ru/ - neither /i/ nor /u/ but a pronunciation bordering the two.

V


Are you talking about your local variation of Sanskrit pronunciation? My main question was in reference to the historical pronunciation -- at some point, linguists say it was pronounced as a pure /r/, like the vocalic "r" in some Slavic languages; the Serbian name for their own language is spelled Srpski and pronounced [sr̩̂pskiː] for example. Do any Indians today still pronounce vocalic "r" as /r/?
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Re: Sanskrit vocalic "r"

Postby vinodh » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:45 am

Are you talking about your local variation of Sanskrit pronunciation?


This is how the majority of the Indians attempt to pronounce it.

And no Indians will pronounce it as 'r'.

My main question was in reference to the historical pronunciation


As for the historical pronunciation. People are not quite clear.

IIRC in several sources I read it was reconstructed as 'ar' (sort of a rhotic vowel). Because, the Vriddhi and Guna forms for vocalic 'r' are 'ar' and 'aar' respectively. In a similar vein, the Pali equivalents of the Sanskrit words have 'a' in the place of vocalic 'r'.

This would explain why at Sandhi, vocalic 'r' grammatically mutates into 'ar (and the degradation of vocalic 'r' to 'a' in Pali)'. So it seems correct to consider it historically as a rhotic vowel, which at some point became /ri~ru/.

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yo dharmaṁ paśyati, sa buddhaṁ paśyati

One who sees the Dharma, sees the Buddha
śālistamba sūtra

na pudgalo na ca skandhā buddho jñānamanāsravam
sadāśāntiṁ vibhāvitvā gacchāmi śaraṇaṁ hyaham

Neither a person nor the aggregates, the Buddha, is knowledge free from [evil] outflows
Clearly perceiving [him] to be eternally serene, I go for refuge [in him]
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