Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 08, 2012 10:50 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue May 08, 2012 11:04 pm

Could the Vedics have altered the Upanishads?

Anyhow, it seems to me that there is a strong case for the likelihood that Tantra in India originated with the Dravidians. Perhaps some of the said Dravidians are the Black Buddhas referred to in the writings of Godfrey Higgins.


Or we could also—per the title of this thread—say that Enlightened Beings have appeared to Jains, Naths, Dravidians, Bonpos, Buddhists, etc. according to their respective capacities.

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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

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Malcolm
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 09, 2012 1:50 am

Last edited by Malcolm on Wed May 09, 2012 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.




འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Rakz » Wed May 09, 2012 1:53 am

What is Lakshmi seen as?

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 09, 2012 1:55 am





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Adamantine
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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Adamantine » Wed May 09, 2012 2:10 am

Ok, so let's begin to list the deities the two traditions both share devotion to and are thus
awakened wisdom beings or powerful oath-bound guardian dharma-students:

Laxmi (Vasudevi)

Saraswati

Tara

Chinnamasta

(wisdom beings)
________________

Ganesha

(some say wisdom being, some say worldly protector)

_________________



Shiva (Mahadeva) & Paravati (Mahadevi)

(worldy protectors)

I am sure there are more. . . please add
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Adamantine » Wed May 09, 2012 2:15 am

Namdrol, your version and belief still confuses me. You say that Kali was subjugated by Vajrayogini, and as such they are not the same. But in another response, you paint a portait of her as an afflicted being who is harmful and takes payment in blood. If she was indeed subjugated by Vajrayogini, she should then be at the very least an oath-bound guardian at this point, if not a devoted and realized Dharma practitioner. So how would she be taking payment in blood, in a mercenary fashion as you imply? Please clarify your points.

Similarly, what is the status of Bhairava, if he has been subjugated? As referred to in another thread, many Tibetans, including Lamas, visit Bhairava statues and temples in Nepal and see them as Mahakala, or maybe it is the Hindus calling Mahakala Bhairava.. it is hard to keep track.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby dakini_boi » Wed May 09, 2012 4:53 am


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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed May 09, 2012 5:10 am


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Karma Dorje
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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed May 09, 2012 5:30 am

Not all tantric traditions accept shruti, particularly the Kaula. Tantra is from a much earlier agamic strata that informed the puranic literature, particularly the Yamala class of literature of which very little is extant. While we can locate texts such as the Chandi within the puranic corpus, it is most likely embedded from earlier sources rather than derived from other puranic lore.

The Golden Dharmas of the Sakya have a strong Hindu element: Tinuma whose mantra is an obvious derivative of the Shri Vidya, Ganapati, Garuda, Vasudhara, etc. This is also true of some of the Jonangpa collections like the Rinjung Gyatsa, where we find Mahalakshmi, Rakta Ganapati, Pratyangira, etc. The bija of Sri Kalachakra is the same as the mantra of Anandabhairava. The list goes on.

However, I think a couple standpoints are being confused. I would never argue that the traditions are identical. They are not. As Malcolm points out, there are teachings such as togal that are explicit in buddhist teachings that are not at all explicit in Hindu teachings where they exist at all. The entire bodhisattva ethic, while not absent from Hinduism is at best nascent. I think that there is a larger point that bears greater investigation: regardless of stated viewpoint, is the actual realization of the great masters of these various teachings different? My experience of this is that it is not. Different conceptual frameworks are used to convey the experience but both Hindu and Buddhist approaches have both via positiva and via negativa approaches that are used at different times to purify the aspirant of grasping to doctrine as definitive.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed May 09, 2012 7:18 am

Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Wed May 09, 2012 8:00 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed May 09, 2012 7:45 am

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed May 09, 2012 8:17 am

Well apparently many Chandalas, Dalits, Sudras, etc. are just as convinced as the '19th century Eurocentric philologists' that barbaric Caucasian so-called Aryans invaded the Black Aboriginal Dravidians.

Who knows for sure though, the "bunkers" and "debunkers" could both go on forever refuting one another with just as apparently valid points as the previously given one (I've read convincing perspectives—such as the David Frawley one you posted—from both sides). So I think the best method to settle these things once and for all, would be to gain the meditative clarity to view the 'Akashic Records', so to speak, for oneself, as Buddhas of various levels are said to be able to do (see appendix 7 or 8 of Jigme Lingpa's Treasury of Precious Qualities). Nothing necessarily wrong with having an interest in these topics before achieving such powerful clairvoyance though.

The Druid and Master Mason Godfrey Higgins who I've quoted a number of times was a 19th Century European, and I wouldn't consider him Eurocentric. In fact, many people consider him to have been somewhat Afrocentric lol. Although from what I recall he didn't make a whole lot of explicit references to the '"Aryan" invasion theory'. His writings regarding the ancient Black Buddhas who built Stonehenge, Round Towers, and other Cyclopean monuments around the world, are very interesting though (like I said, look him up in the Dharmawheel search box). :buddha1:

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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed May 09, 2012 12:40 pm

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 09, 2012 2:16 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed May 09, 2012 2:44 pm

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Emanations in Indian Religions

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 09, 2012 2:47 pm

Last edited by Malcolm on Wed May 09, 2012 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.




འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa


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