Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:01 pm

Thanks Fa Dao

So in short, if we practice the Six Lokas Rushen exactly as it is explained in The Precious Vase, it can 'work'; however that seeking additional teachings on the practices in The Precious Vase can only help, yet that doing so is not absolutely necessary if we understand the explanations given in The Precious Vase.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Fa Dao » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:19 pm

Llug Pa,
as to the Precious vase, if you understand exactly what Rinpoche is trying to get across then great. For me I can be a little anal about details which is why I got the book Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins. I found that book to be quite helpful in making me feel more confident in tackling those practices.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:42 pm

Yea I can get a little OCD myself at times, so maybe this is the best secondary practice to get started on for eliminating that tendency. :idea:

The explanation of the Six Lokas practice in The Precious Vase is pretty straight forward, however I'll read it again to make sure I understand it enough.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:24 am

Could anyone please explain why the Purification of the Six Lokas practice is on the Ritual Melodies CD (here or via PM)?

The Mantra of the said practice seems too short to have an actual melody; according the practice described in The Precious Vase anyway.

Well perhaps as short as the Mantra is, a specific tone or pitch is still required?

Maybe it only is a specific variation of the Six Lokas practice that is long enough to have a melody....
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Pero » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:33 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Could anyone please explain why the Purification of the Six Lokas practice is on the Ritual Melodies CD (here or via PM)?

The Mantra of the said practice seems too short to have an actual melody; according the practice described in The Precious Vase anyway.

Well perhaps as short as the Mantra is, a specific tone or pitch is still required?

Maybe it only is a specific variation of the Six Lokas practice that is long enough to have a melody....

Why do you assume this? One can sing a melody with just one vowel even, no need for there to be many syllables or words. But anyway, on that CD the practice is done with some additional mantras, it is more related to Longsal I think. This practice is in the book Collective Practices. But you don't need any melody to do the PoSL practice as it is explained in the PV.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby gad rgyangs » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:54 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Could anyone please explain why the Purification of the Six Lokas practice is on the Ritual Melodies CD (here or via PM)?

The Mantra of the said practice seems too short to have an actual melody; according the practice described in The Precious Vase anyway.

Well perhaps as short as the Mantra is, a specific tone or pitch is still required?

Maybe it only is a specific variation of the Six Lokas practice that is long enough to have a melody....


the way Rinpoche sings the six lokas purification is really quite amazing, and makes the practice very profound (at least it feels that way to me). In the precious vase, he does not mention the chanting of the six syllables (the same ones in the dedication of merit in the tuns), but in the actual practice (found in the "Series of Practices 100E" publication: maybe it appears elsewhere too?) the sequence of the six syllables get rotated for each loka, and sung repeatedly with a melody. there are also a couple of longer mantras that are also not in the precious vase. the practice described in the precious vase differs from what he does on the CD, which follows the practice as given in the "Series of Practices" book.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:43 pm

Thanks Pero and Gad rGyangs. :anjali:

Perhaps I'll get the Ritual Melodies CD, the Ati Lamgyi Ngondro CD, the Commentary on the Ngondro book, and the Six Lokas book or Six Lokas CD, in order to make sure I'm confident in performing the practice correctly; even if I end up just doing the practice according to The Precious Vase explanation.

It looks like the Series of Practices books are quite rare now....
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Pero » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:42 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Thanks Pero and Gad rGyangs. :anjali:

Perhaps I'll get the Ritual Melodies CD, the Ati Lamgyi Ngondro CD, the Commentary on the Ngondro book, and the Six Lokas book or Six Lokas CD, in order to make sure I'm confident in performing the practice correctly; even if I end up just doing the practice according to The Precious Vase explanation.

What you call the "Six Lokas book" is not related to Ati Lamgyi Ngondro nor the practice on the Ritual Melodies CD nor the ngondro book (Six Lokas CD link doesn't work for me). It is actually a kind of tsalung method for the purification of 6 lokas (from the Longsal cycle), so reading it will probably give you no clue on the others. The ngondro book I think has more or less the same version as the PV.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:58 pm

Hm, the said link works for me. I didn't know that Ati Lamgyi Ngondro was the one with Tsa-Lung.

I'm mainly interested in its combination of the Rushen with Vajrasattva Practice.

Although maybe for now I'll just purchase the above items, with the exception of the Ati Lamgyi Ngondro CD and the Commentary on the Ngondro book.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Pero » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:08 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Hm, the said link works for me. I didn't know that Ati Lamgyi Ngondro was the one with Tsa-Lung.

I'm mainly interested in its combination of the Rushen with Vajrasattva Practice.

Although maybe for now I'll just purchase the above items, with the exception of the Ati Lamgyi Ngondro CD and the Commentary on the Ngondro book.

Yeah it works for me now too, don't know why it didn't before. Don't have that CD so can't say anything about it. Ati Lamgyi Ngondro is not the one with tsalung, it is the one with Vajrasattva practice. What you dubbed "Six Lokas book" is the one with tsalung.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:30 pm

Ah, my bad. Well it looks like between this thread and the Dzogchen Ganapuja thread, we have a good idea of where information on most if not all of the Dzogchen Community Six Lokas practices can be found. :idea:
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed May 09, 2012 1:53 am

What type of and minimum amount of Pranayama and/or Yantra Yoga practice should one be doing in order for the Rushen's to be sufficiently effective?
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Josef » Wed May 09, 2012 3:00 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:What type of and minimum amount of Pranayama and/or Yantra Yoga practice should one be doing in order for the Rushen's to be sufficiently effective?

Pranayama and yantra will help of course but they arent explicitly necessary.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Lhug-Pa » Thu May 10, 2012 2:08 am

Thanks Nangwa. Since my schedule is probably going to be pretty tight soon, I'm just trying to make sure that the secondary causes are there for the Rushen practices to have the intended function (like for example, I wondered if it was common knowledge among older practitioners that Pranayama and/or Yantra Yoga are necessary to some degree for most secondary practices to work; although if this were the case I think Rinpoche would mention it often). Most likely in this case no other secondary causes are necessary aside from what is explained in the Rushen instructions themselves. Yantra Yoga must then be indispensable less from the get-go and more in the long run.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Jacob » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:47 pm

I have a question about 6 loka purification. How much time should i devote to do each loka? I know there are some recommendations from The Precious Vase, but i don't have this book.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Pero » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:26 pm

I'll PM you.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:35 am

From another recent thread:


Lhug-Pa wrote:Well for the Six Lokas practice for example, if we were to do two & a half hours each morning and each night, I reckon that one could complete one Loka each week and therefore finish the entire practice in seven weeks; or one & a half hours each morning and each night and complete it in 14 weeks, etc. (don't take this as an exact calculation, as there are many factors to be considered, and for each individual, and the specific version of the Six Lokas practice one is doing, etc.).

That way, assuming we won't have too many distractions from noisy neighbors, etc., we wouldn't even have to go on vacation and do a solitary retreat. However I think that it is important for such a practice, to not miss a single day until it is finished. So if we can, it is always better to go do a solitary retreat, where we could also complete the practice in a shorter span of days or weeks.

Or as Pemachophel said, if we can go on retreat for years at a time, even better. Although I think that with maybe the exception of the Outer Rushen, we could do all the Rushens at home (and it is said that the Outer Rushen is not indispensable).


Has Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche or any other Lama ever said anything about this^, or implied anything about it; related to for example, practicing the Inner Rushen at home over a 14 week period at two one-&-a-half-hour sessions per day, while making sure to never miss a single session?
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Sherlock » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:39 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Has Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche or any other Lama ever said anything about this^, or implied anything about it; related to for example, practicing the Inner Rushen at home over a 14 week period at two one-&-a-half-hour sessions per day, while making sure to never miss a single session?



These are the practices of the Base Level of Santi Maha Sangha to be performed in
sitting sessions or thuns. (One day of practice corresponds to four thuns. If you cannot
do long retreats, you can do the required number of thuns in a longer time according to
your own circumstances.)


From the back of the Precious Vase. But it's best to check with Rinpoche or an SMS instructor.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby oldbob » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:08 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:From another recent thread:


Lhug-Pa wrote:Well for the Six Lokas practice for example, if we were to do two & a half hours each morning and each night, I reckon that one could complete one Loka each week and therefore finish the entire practice in seven weeks; or one & a half hours each morning and each night and complete it in 14 weeks, etc. (don't take this as an exact calculation, as there are many factors to be considered, and for each individual, and the specific version of the Six Lokas practice one is doing, etc.).

That way, assuming we won't have too many distractions from noisy neighbors, etc., we wouldn't even have to go on vacation and do a solitary retreat. However I think that it is important for such a practice, to not miss a single day until it is finished. So if we can, it is always better to go do a solitary retreat, where we could also complete the practice in a shorter span of days or weeks.

Or as Pemachophel said, if we can go on retreat for years at a time, even better. Although I think that with maybe the exception of the Outer Rushen, we could do all the Rushens at home (and it is said that the Outer Rushen is not indispensable).


Has Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche or any other Lama ever said anything about this^, or implied anything about it; related to for example, practicing the Inner Rushen at home over a 14 week period at two one-&-a-half-hour sessions per day, while making sure to never miss a single session?



Dear all and All,

Good questions!

I don't recall what ChNNR, or any other Lama, said about this, but ChNNR always says for us to work with circumstances. When I did my 6 Loka retreat in 1989, or so, I spent 4 months at it, spending as much time as I could be comfortable with, each day. My comfort level is different than yours. So you may spend more or less time with it than I did each day, and so you may finish in more or less time than I did.

ChNNR always reminds us to work with circumstances and fulfill our responsibilities. This again, will vary from person to person, and from time to time, when practicing.

So I think there is no set rule. The key point is to turn the Wheel and make progress. You never want to force yourself, or constrict yourself, and then develop an anti-feeling and run away from practice.

It's talked about like tuning a guitar, not too tight and not too loose. Then slowly slowly / quickly quickly, you get through the accumulation. In the teachings of ChNNR, there is no set point at which you "complete" an accumulation (except perhaps in SMS; please ask an SMS instructor). The principle is, that the practice has to work. There is alot more to be said that is not appropriate to discuss here, and should only be shared with those who have the transmission from the same Master.

I did my first Rushens in 1980, in a Longchen Nyingtig retreat, and was very happy to have done this in the presence of a Dzogchen Master, because this allowed an ongoing dialog about the practice as it developed. The Rushens are working with your energy on many different subtle levels, and are different when you do them at home, by yourself, or in the presence of a Dzogchen Master.

Hope this is of help to someone.

May the Dzogchen Masters live long, in good health, and with success in all things.

ob
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:17 pm

oldbob wrote:Hope this is of help to someone.


It is. Thank you.

I would guess that for the Outer and/or Inner Rushens specifically, not missing a single day until it is finished would be very important; and, even though missing a day would not necessarily eradicate all benefit accumulated up until that point, it would still most likely be best to start the Outer and/or Inner Rushen over if one misses a day, in order to make sure that it is done correctly. And if one thinks that it is likely that a day could get missed, then maybe it's better to wait until one can go on an actual away-from-home retreat (unless one doesn't mind starting over everytime a day is missed).... Just me speculating.


Another idea:


Malcolm wrote:[...] 100,000 is the Treta yoga amount, but since we are in Kali yuga, it is multiplied by four.


So something like this:

? - Krita Yuga
100,000 - Treta Yuga
200,000 - Dvapara Yuga
400,000 - Kali Yuga

:?:

Or like this:

? - Krita Yuga
? - Treta Yuga
100,000 - Dvapara Yuga
400,000 - Kali Yuga

:?:

Is this only for Ngondro, or would it apply to the Inner Rushen as well? Would probably not apply to Rushen too, if Rinpoche doesn't mention this often or at all.

Either way, there are I believe four variations of the Inner Rushen taught in the Dzogchen Community, so if we want to make sure to 'get the job done', 4 X 4-Inner Rushen practices ought to do it (or just watch for the signs of completion in dreams, etc.) And also, doing the Inner Rushen at least twice in order 'to make up for' skipping the Outer Rushen could be a good idea, if one wishes to skip the Outer Rushen.


Afterall:


heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:This does not mean we need to do anything to acheive awakening. We merely need to extend the period of our non-dual integration from nanoseconds to 24/7.


True, still I use every trick I have to do just that, "extend the period of our non-dual integration from nanoseconds to 24/7".

Which was probably why Vimalamitra practiced rushan six months out of every year at Vulture's peek at Rajghi, don't you think?
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