Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon May 07, 2012 3:37 pm

kirtu wrote:Greg - I can't find a tabular breakdown on the voting results (haven't looked in the German press yet though) - do you have a link to a tabular view of the election results by party


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_Parliament
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon May 07, 2012 10:34 pm

Maybe those posting from Greece should be mindful of reprisals?
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Tue May 08, 2012 8:08 am

Blue Garuda wrote:Maybe those posting from Greece should be mindful of reprisals?


?
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Thrasymachus » Tue May 08, 2012 10:10 am

Parliament seats to the left
108 18,85 % New Democracy
52 16,78 % Syriza
41 13,18 % PASOK
33 10,60 % Independent Greeks
26 8,48 % KKE
21 6,97 % Golden Dawn
19 6,11 % Democract Left
2,93 % Ecological Greens
2,90 % LAOS
2,55 % Democratic Union

Source: http://ekloges.ypes.gr/

Also Greg is giving very biased info, he is obviously an extreme leftist and wants to paint a corresponding black and white picture. Basically all the parties that are anti-austerity, and who were against the Memorandum are being rewarded and those who were/are for it, have been greatly punished in the elections.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Tue May 08, 2012 10:50 am

Thrasymachus wrote:Parliament seats to the left
108 18,85 % New Democracy
52 16,78 % Syriza
41 13,18 % PASOK
33 10,60 % Independent Greeks
26 8,48 % KKE
21 6,97 % Golden Dawn
19 6,11 % Democract Left
2,93 % Ecological Greens
2,90 % LAOS
2,55 % Democratic Union

Source: http://ekloges.ypes.gr/

Also Greg is giving very biased info, he is obviously an extreme leftist and wants to paint a corresponding black and white picture. Basically all the parties that are anti-austerity, and who were against the Memorandum are being rewarded and those who were/are for it, have been greatly punished in the elections.


apparently you are a neo-liberal with a very biased view ... :rolling:

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Thrasymachus » Tue May 08, 2012 11:54 am

You really need help and your not funny.

What Greg is portraying is very simplistic, but it is typical of what most people believe about politics. He tries to portray a party as "open supporters of the previous military junta" like it is bad compared to an established norm. But he ignores the "democratically elected" leaders of Greece, since the 1974 metapolitefsi in their majority all been corrupt and bought whores, often enough paid off by foreign countries. In the Siemens scandal many politicians of the two biggest parties PASOK and ND were revealed to have been bribed by Siemens.

Needless to say electoral power is not exercising any significant power on a national scale, especially since a solitary citizen even in a state of 10 million, has nearly noagency to effect change on that scale. Nor is voting allowing you to exercise any direct control in your life -- rather it is bragging to cede it away to elected representatives. The Western elites have learned techniques over the years and one of the most effective is to allow their slaves the illusion of freedom. In Greek probably the best word for slave is doulos/δούλος, which means essentially worker. If you are a worker you are slave, simple as that. Since money is power, not votes, most politicians can be bought. Now maybe one of the reasons a rare politician in Greece cannot be bribed, is because he is patriotic -- he cares about his people, his nation. But Greg was raised under the metapolitefsi ideological junta -- so he would rather pretend there should not be patriots or nationalists and so he constructs a narrative where we should support the left.

As to neoliberalism that is not what is happening in Greece and EU. What is happening is what was agreed when the EU was founded as a project -- a Central bank is enslaving the less competitive periphery states of the EU, since those states have given up their fiscal policy. These states, with Greece being the first, are pushed to cede a huge degree of control to the European Commission (EC), the International Monetary Fund (IMF), and the European Central Bank (ECB) under the guise of austerity to pay off an odious debt.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 08, 2012 3:04 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:What Greg is portraying is very simplistic, but it is typical of what most people believe about politics. He tries to portray a party as "open supporters of the previous military junta" like it is bad compared to an established norm. But he ignores the "democratically elected" leaders of Greece, since the 1974 metapolitefsi in their majority all been corrupt and bought whores, often enough paid off by foreign countries. In the Siemens scandal many politicians of the two biggest parties PASOK and ND were revealed to have been bribed by Siemens.
You have no idea what you are talking about because:
1. You obviously have not read the rest of the thread and my critique of PASOK and New Democracy.
2. There was no comparison made in my critique of the party Independent Greeks. My critique is based on the fact that the president of the party (Kammenos) has direct contact with members of a military junta. That, by itself, is more than enough to prove what sort of person (a*s h**e) he is.
But Greg was raised under the metapolitefsi ideological junta -- so he would rather pretend there should not be patriots or nationalists and so he constructs a narrative where we should support the left.
It's easy to make these comments from the safety of American suburbia. My girlfriend grew up through the military junta and the ensuing "golden years" of two party democracy, you can be sure that she will have a few (negative) things to tell you about both. Like the fact that four or more people couldn't gather publicly without offical permission during the junta. That meant that an informal gethering in ones home could lead to arrest if an extra person just happened to drop by. Anyway, I was not raised during the "metapolitefsi ideological junta", I was brought up in New Zealand and Australia. These were countries with a very low emphasis on "patriotism" and "nationalism" and a high emphasis on common weal. Anyway, in terms of Independent Greeks and Golden Dawn, we are not talking about patriotism, we are talking about neo-Nazi skinheads and supporters of Nationalist dictatorships.
As to neoliberalism that is not what is happening in Greece and EU. What is happening is what was agreed when the EU was founded as a project -- a Central bank is enslaving the less competitive periphery states of the EU, since those states have given up their fiscal policy. These states, with Greece being the first, are pushed to cede a huge degree of control to the European Commission (EC), the International Monetary Fund (IMF), and the European Central Bank (ECB) under the guise of austerity to pay off an odious debt.
Yes, well, except that when the EU was formed there was no mention of IMF ruling it, was there? Do you know that the German national government borrows money from the IMF and then lends it to the Greek national government at a higher interest rate? You know what that's called? Loan sharking! You know what the Greek government does with the money they lend? Pay back their previous debt. You see, it's not the Central Bank that is setting the rates and giving the loans, it's the German national government and the IMF. Guess what? That wasn't part of the deal for EU membership!
:namaste:
PS The statistics you gave were not the proportions of parliamentary seats, they were proportions of the total vote. Any party that got less than three percent does not get a seat AND (based on a law they snuck in just before the elections since they knew the two major parties were going down) their percentage of the vote goes to the party with the highest percentage. AND, just in case you didn't know this, the party with the highest percentage of votes gets a bonus 50 seats, even if they are not capable of forming a ruling (majority) alliance!

PPS Golden Dawn was not anti-memorandum, they have no policy on the memorandum AND funnily enough, they also have not made public their stance on the payment of the war repatriations from the Germans. You will find they will lose a lot of "patriotic" supporters over that one!

PPS The Communist Party of Greece, is a Stalinist party, that makes them leftists AND nationalists.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Tue May 08, 2012 4:10 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:PPS The Communist Party of Greece, is a Stalinist party, that makes them leftists AND nationalists.


Depending on whose definition of 'left' you choose to rely on. From where I'm standing, Stalinism isn't left-wing. Never was, never will be.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 08, 2012 4:44 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Depending on whose definition of 'left' you choose to rely on. From where I'm standing, Stalinism isn't left-wing. Never was, never will be.
You'd be surprised how many people consider Stalinism left-wing (I'm not one of them). The Greek Communist Party are socialist and nationalist, is that better?
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Tue May 08, 2012 6:37 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:Depending on whose definition of 'left' you choose to rely on. From where I'm standing, Stalinism isn't left-wing. Never was, never will be.
You'd be surprised how many people consider Stalinism left-wing (I'm not one of them). The Greek Communist Party are socialist and nationalist, is that better?
:namaste:


Apologies for the nit-picking - but you probably know very well why I bothered at all, don't you :-)
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Thrasymachus » Tue May 08, 2012 9:40 pm

Greg, you are confused. The easiest thing to do is repeat the foundational political myths of the society you are embedded in because you don't have to do anything, those myths will come to you wherever you are as indoctrination. You may not have been raised in your developing years with metapoltefsi myths, but you fully adopted them. You try to create an infantile narrative that says those not on the left are the bad guys. The majority of those in Greece(and Europe in general) who have been imposing their views using violence and other fascist methods call themselves anti-fa, far leftists, and anarchists, who in Greece are mostly Alfred Bonanno wannabes. But the media for years has been portraying the opposite and trying to focus on much smaller numbers of far rightists.

Most of the recent support for Xrysh Aygh came because of the explosive illegal immigrant situation. For years more immigrants have been entering in Greece, than births have been recorded in Greece in a given year. However, most these immigrants only transited, but enough stayed. Alot of Greek people don't feel safe, the police are ineffective, the leftists who you say to support are too pro immigrant, they tend to help immigrants while ignoring the Greeks who face criminality and lawlessness. Alot of those migrants are muslims, with the same civilizational ethos of those who almost wiped out Buddhism totally from India and who destroyed the Greek community of Anatolia. Islam is not a religion, it is a totalitarian system that is imposed on people, and the difference in Islamic sects are juridical. The average faithful Mahometan has more totalitarian beliefs than any far right nationalist or even Neo-nazi in Western society. You try a reductionist approach that cannot explain the complexity of the situation.

You are also confused about the nature of the EU, probably because metapoltefsi ideology teaches worship of Western Europe. The Western European countries have for decades most of their impoverished ex-colonies sending $10-15 in debt servicing for every $1 in aid they give. But via media, they teach their spoiled citizens, that the lazy global South takes their generous aid and complains. Now the media of countries like Germany, Netherlands, etc. takes the same tact with countries like Greece. The European Union was not created as a benevolent union to avoid a repeat of World War II, it was/is a plot by sharkish elites to enslave national European states to powerful Continental banking interests.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 08, 2012 10:22 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:Greg, you are confused. The easiest thing to do is repeat the foundational political myths of the society you are embedded in because you don't have to do anything, those myths will come to you wherever you are as indoctrination. You may not have been raised in your developing years with metapoltefsi myths, but you fully adopted them.
Bzzzztttt... wrong!
You try to create an infantile narrative that says those not on the left are the bad guys. The majority of those in Greece(and Europe in general) who have been imposing their views using violence and other fascist methods call themselves anti-fa, far leftists, and anarchists, who in Greece are mostly Alfred Bonanno wannabes. But the media for years has been portraying the opposite and trying to focus on much smaller numbers of far rightists.
This is true to an extent, only that I do not support insurrectionary anarchism either because it is purely reactive and does nothing to build up a functioning social base (short of a really bad gig or two and some cheap beer) for lasting change.
Most of the recent support for Xrysh Aygh came because of the explosive illegal immigrant situation. For years more immigrants have been entering in Greece, than births have been recorded in Greece in a given year. However, most these immigrants only transited, but enough stayed.
They were forced to stay. Do you know what the Dublin treaty is? You know where most of the refugees pouring into this country are coming over the past 5+ years and why?
A lot of Greek people don't feel safe, the police are ineffective, the leftists who you say to support are too pro immigrant, they tend to help immigrants while ignoring the Greeks who face criminality and lawlessness. Alot of those migrants are muslims, with the same civilizational ethos of those who almost wiped out Buddhism totally from India and who destroyed the Greek community of Anatolia. Islam is not a religion, it is a totalitarian system that is imposed on people, and the difference in Islamic sects are juridical. The average faithful Mahometan has more totalitarian beliefs than any far right nationalist or even Neo-nazi in Western society. You try a reductionist approach that cannot explain the complexity of the situation.
Painting all Muslims as culture destroying barbarians is not a reductive approach? Islam is to blame for Greece's economic problems? The refugees are to blame for all the criminality and lawlessness in Greece? Do you have any idea what it is like to live in Greece as an "illegal immigrant"? Do you know how many claims for political asylum are made in Greece each year and how many are granted? Do you have any idea whatsoever about the amount and type of labour that "illegal immigrants" provide in Greece?

Sonam pegged you as a neo-liberal, but it seems that you are actually a fascist.
You are also confused about the nature of the EU, probably because metapoltefsi ideology teaches worship of Western Europe. The Western European countries have for decades most of their impoverished ex-colonies sending $10-15 in debt servicing for every $1 in aid they give. But via media, they teach their spoiled citizens, that the lazy global South takes their generous aid and complains. Now the media of countries like Germany, Netherlands, etc. takes the same tact with countries like Greece. The European Union was not created as a benevolent union to avoid a repeat of World War II, it was/is a plot by sharkish elites to enslave national European states to powerful Continental banking interests.
Well, gee, thanks for pointing that out to me, it took a kid posting from the safety of their parents suburban home in the US to show me the reality of the EU . In two posts you have managed to completly shatter my world view and convince me that fascism is the only answer for Greece.

Unemployment is rampant, lawlessness is rife, the country is quickly proceeding towards bankruptcy, wages have been slahed, prices have risen, what shall we do??? Kick the refugee! What else?
:namaste:
PS Has it ever occured to you that not everybody is sucked in by the propaganda that they are fed? That some people are capable of independent thought?
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One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Konchog1 » Tue May 08, 2012 10:45 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:PPS The Communist Party of Greece, is a Stalinist party, that makes them leftists AND nationalists.


Depending on whose definition of 'left' you choose to rely on. From where I'm standing, Stalinism isn't left-wing. Never was, never will be.
Using the xy axis, with economic control as the x and social control as the y, Stalinism is Left Wing. Very Left Wing.

But Left and Right Wing are very loose terms that are defined many ways by many people. Ideologies aren't simple this or that, neither are people.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 08, 2012 10:52 pm

Konchog1 wrote:]Using the xy axis, with economic control as the x and social control as the y, Stalinism is Left Wing. Very Left Wing.

But Left and Right Wing are very loose terms that are defined many ways by many people. Ideologies aren't simple this or that, neither are people.
True, but generally speaking left wing normally refers to socialist economic policies. Funny thing is that according to that definition social anarchists/anarcho communists are right wing!
:namaste:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Tue May 08, 2012 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Konchog1 » Tue May 08, 2012 10:56 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:]Using the xy axis, with economic control as the x and social control as the y, Stalinism is Left Wing. Very Left Wing.

But Left and Right Wing are very loose terms that are defined many ways by many people. Ideologies aren't simple this or that, neither are people.
True, but generally speaking left wing normally refers to socialist economic policies. Funy thing is that according to that definition social anarchists/anarcho communists are right wing!
:namaste:
I always giggle imagining Ayn Rand's or Theodore Kaczynski's reaction to being told that some people consider them "Far Right".
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 08, 2012 11:04 pm

Konchog1 wrote:I always giggle imagining Ayn Rand's or Theodore Kaczynski's reaction to being told that some people consider them "Far Right".
Especially if one considers that Fascism and Nazism "proper" are actually based on a socialist economic system (but only for the white/right guys!)
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One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Thrasymachus » Tue May 08, 2012 11:06 pm

Greg, you have real hostility problems. I know that Greeks really hate Americans already, since they were taught a false narrative that the USA made and supported the Greek junta of 1967-74, I don't need you to prove it. Infact Greek media has taught you that position, because the Greek politicians and media need to deflate from the fact that they are operating as quislings for a few powerful Western European states. Their technique is to misdirect people to rail against the Greek junta and America. The leading members of junta were jailed and died poor, so the purpose of continually bringing up that period is to ignore the political crooks, living lavishly, facing no austerity and little threat of prosecution because they were "democratically elected".

I just provided a counter to your reductivist narrative to make the left seem better than they really are. I am not saying migrants are the cause of all problems, but when a country cannot properly care for its own citizens, when it is facing its worst crisis in over a generation, it cannot serve as a sponge for the rest of the world like Greece has been. Also since you seem to criticize Greek political parties for their beliefs and far-rightists, it seems odd you cannot do the same with illegal migrants. Just because they don't have a high social position in society doesn't make their beliefs less restrictive and less violent than say Golden Dawn. In most majority muslim countries there is not much opportunity to even practice dharma:
http://www.buddhanet.info/wbd/
Obviously you want to pretend that you are good, making the right choices, giving you a high perch to judge the bad Greeks who support what you don't agree with. Life is not about purity, people only have the choices most of the time between certain options they never want and ideals are just fantasies.

Living in a country does not mean you know the structure of that society, because most don't, they don't even want to take time to research to know. I am pretty sure I listened to same Documentary, Greek Crises Ground Zer0, posted to this very thread earlier, you possibly based this on:
gregkavarnos wrote:Do you know that the German national government borrows money from the IMF and then lends it to the Greek national government at a higher interest rate?

And from what I remember some Greek in that film said that Germany set up a slush bank to borrow from the ECB at a favorable interest and reloan at a higher interest to Greece. The Greek government wouldn't do the same as he suggested. Probably because of their quisling status.

Until you demonstrate knowledge that you know the structure of Greek society well or the EU, I won't believe you have it. And you don't need to live in a certain place to know such things.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 09, 2012 12:07 am

Thrasymachus wrote:Greg, you have real hostility problems. I know that Greeks really hate Americans already, since they were taught a false narrative that the USA made and supported the Greek junta of 1967-74, I don't need you to prove it. Infact Greek media has taught you that position, because the Greek politicians and media need to deflate from the fact that they are operating as quislings for a few powerful Western European states. Their technique is to misdirect people to rail against the Greek junta and America. The leading members of junta were jailed and died poor, so the purpose of continually bringing up that period is to ignore the political crooks, living lavishly, facing no austerity and little threat of prosecution because they were "democratically elected".
This is the third time I am saying this to you, now this means that you are either really thick or you are purposefully misrepresenting me. I am also critical of the two party system that destroyed Greece (and have been ever since coming to Greece), as are (at long last) the majority of Greek people. If you read the rest of the thread you will see that quite clearly, but you refuse to do so in order to support the notion that somehow people should not be critical of the role of the junta and the Marshall plan in shaping Greeces current situation. You are unbelievably naieve if you believe that the actions of New Democaracy and PASOK somehow exonerate all the misdeeds of the junta. BOTH options: junta and corrupt democracy, are invalid and untenable. I also do not believe that a coalition of leftist parties is the answer, BUT it is the only feasible option right now. The junta option has been tried and it failed miserably.
I just provided a counter to your reductivist narrative to make the left seem better than they really are. I am not saying migrants are the cause of all problems, but when a country cannot properly care for its own citizens, when it is facing its worst crisis in over a generation, it cannot serve as a sponge for the rest of the world like Greece has been.
Go read the details of the Dublin Treaty and stop spouting uniformed crap.
Also since you seem to criticize Greek political parties for their beliefs and far-rightists, it seems odd you cannot do the same with illegal migrants. Just because they don't have a high social position in society doesn't make their beliefs less restrictive and less violent than say Golden Dawn.
Now you are saying that illegal immigrants and Golden dawn have the same legitimacy and position in Greek society? Either you are a fool or you are an apologist. If you are a fool then go and get educated, if you are an apologist then I have nothing more to say to you.
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Wed May 09, 2012 8:15 am

Thrasymachus wrote:You really need help and your not funny.


In fact I made a mistake, you are a redneck and a fascist ... and because of that you cannot be a buddhist. What are you doing here? prepare the advent of a new ultra-right governement in Greece ... I guess yes.
About American (CIA) having supported the junta, it is a well known fact, not a story ... because american redneck have always been afraid of all than can look left. Very stupid.
I suppose you think that France is on the brink of collapse.

Sönam



... and I saw that this group is all over the net, trying to explain how nice is Golden Dawn.
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Infinite » Wed May 09, 2012 8:24 am

I thought it was a well-known fact that my nation shafted Greeks not only in the Junta but during liberation from the Nazis. Especially the island of Crete I had a friend from there and he almost didn't talk to me because I was American. Luckily I knocked that barrier down but still I can't believe the weird things I read on this site at times. I love this place but at times it feels like I am out in Outer Space or some nonsense. :spy:
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