Still struggling...

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Re: Still struggling...

Postby Paul » Thu May 03, 2012 4:30 pm

beautiful breath wrote:You can't make statements that imply that Vajrayana is the top of the teaching tree mixed with (not so) veiled threats of hell relams and expect people (like me) to be confused?


Don't confuse the technique for the advertising...
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby Lhug-Pa » Thu May 03, 2012 4:40 pm

beautiful breath wrote:specially given that swatting a fly out of anger createss the cause to be reborn in 'Hell'...........


If that's the case, it's probably because once one has made the vow to not kill, the karmic effect of anger and killing becomes much stronger by virtue of having taken vows. On the flipside, by refraining—especially with awareness—from negative actions, the positive merit is that much more amplified. In Tantrayana, if one has committed a downfall, then confess with the four opponent powers, etc. and dedicate the merit for all sentient beings. Of course you actually have to gain knowledge from the entire process, as opposed to merely going through the motions like going to church on Sunday and exploiting people the rest of the week.

Also, in Vajrayana the breath is consider to be very important as well, and there are many methods for controlling the karmic winds. And I think that this relates to Paul's saying of:


Paul wrote:Don't confuse the technique for the advertising...
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu May 03, 2012 5:42 pm

beautiful breath wrote:Ok to recap - there is no definitive answer.....ok :shrug:

There is. It just depends who you're asking.

So, another way of putting this is this: ....My understanding of Tantric teachings is that they're the 'highest' form of teaching available.

Again, this depends on who you're asking. If you ask me, then I'll say no. Dzogchen is the highest form of teachings available. If you ask a Theravadin, he will also disagree.
These are the 'only' way to acheive 'FULL' enlightenment as opposed to a measely 'Liberation' LOL!

No. Every path will allow complete liberation. Even shravakayana is said to lead to liberation, but it will take a long time. Some schools say that Arhats attain a state where they dwell in bliss for thousands of eons until a fully enlightened Buddha rouses them and they proceed to full enlightenment. Again, a Theravada might disagree with this perspective.

Also if you cannot control your sleep (clearl light experience etc...) then how are you going to control your death, intermediate state and rebirth?

Learn to control it. That's what practice is for. There are no free rides to Enlightenment, if that's what you are looking for! :lol:

Especially given that swatting a fly out of anger createss the cause to be reborn in 'Hell'...........can you see my point here?

No. When our mind is constantly overcome by anger, we are creating causes for experiencing in the future a hellish existence. Still, we can purify negative karma. It's not that anger is unavoidable or, when such episodes occur, we can't do anything about it. We can. For instance, we can tame our mind, we can cultivate the four immeasurable thoughts (loving kindness, compassion, empathetic joy and equanimity), we should strive to develop bodhicitta, we can practice do purification practices, we can do ganapuja, and so on and so forth. There's no lack of practices to deal with our mistakes. t's not that if you ever swatted something with anger you'll end up in hell! :lol:

If all of the above is true and correct the Theravadins are wasting their time as are other Mahayanists that are not practicing the Vajrayana.

Nobody practicing the Buddhadharma is wasting time! Do Vajrayanists believe Theravadins (and here it must be said that when we study hinayana, those are ancient schools that no longer exist, since not many Tibetans really know what is Theravada) that their path is swifter? They do. I believe Theravadins would disagree. But do Theravadins or Vajrayanists think that each other are wasting time? Of course not. There's tremendous value in Buddhist practice, whatever it may be.

You can't make statements that imply that Vajrayana is the top of the teaching tree mixed with (not so) veiled threats of hell relams and expect people (like me) to be confused?

Vajrayana may lead to hell if your practice goes awry. This because you'll assume to be practicing the greatest morality when in fact you're not, you're doing the opposite. I believe your knowledge of Vajrayana may not be deep enough for me to explain this in a few lines, but the expression fighting fire with fire applies. You either succeed or burn yourself if you don't know what you are doing. That may lead to hellish existences. Remember the metaphor of the snake in the bamboo tube. It can either go up or down. This is why people need to take seriously the tantric commitments and keep their samayas. Let me just say that samayas can also be mended. Anyway, nobody is forced to practice Tantra and everyone is warned about this. In fact, these days few people who name themselves practitioners of Tibetan Buddhism actually practice Tantra with the sort of diligence and determination necessary for such dramatic effects- Enlightenment vs Vajra Hell. And those who do, generally are in good hands, so they do some progress in the path.
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby heart » Thu May 03, 2012 6:22 pm

beautiful breath wrote:
heart wrote:The pragmatism you "imagine" in the Pali Cannon. There is a current trend in Buddhism that are trying to make the Buddha look like a boring self-help book, I guess that is your inspiration. But what is the point of struggling with Tibetan Buddhism I wonder? I am sure you can find a Theravada temple and go there and study.

/magnus


Sorry, I 'see' pragmatism in the Pali Canon. Also I am not subscribing to any perception of the who the Buddha was. So with respect your predictions are incorrect on both counts.

So anyway...........the fact of the matter is nobody knows? If the Buddha taught Vajrayana then surely we'd know in much the same way that we know he taught whats in the Pali Canon. Don't get all precious people, I am only asking a valid question here. :thanks:

What I am hearing currently is Tibetan Buddhism should really be called "The tibetan take on what the Buddha taught with a prikling of Bon and Hinduism"

Is that fair?


I think you are pretty rude and I sincerely doubt you have a serious interest in any kind of Buddhism. If you had you would be busy studying, contemplating and meditating according to the tradition you prefer instead of wasting our time.

Bye!
/magnus
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby Josef » Thu May 03, 2012 6:50 pm

beautiful breath wrote:...I am getting tied up in knots here...LOL! Tantra and the practices in Tibetan Buddhism are not what the historical Buddha taught are they?



Correct, the historical Buddha did not directly teach those techniques.
They were developed later by realized masters and then transmitted via their students and this is what is going on today.

It always amazed me that people care what techniques the historical Buddha taught.
Personally, I don't give a shit if he ever even existed. We should be concerned with which methods work for us now, not who taught them first and when.
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby Josef » Thu May 03, 2012 7:08 pm

Also, there is a very easy answer to this "struggle".
If you don't like the methods of Vajrayana, don't use them.
People have different dispositions.
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu May 03, 2012 7:47 pm

Nangwa wrote:
beautiful breath wrote:...I am getting tied up in knots here...LOL! Tantra and the practices in Tibetan Buddhism are not what the historical Buddha taught are they?




We should be concerned with which methods work for us now, not who taught them first and when.


Tashi delek,

In Dzogchen does count the unbroken lineage, so important who did teached what.
All is inside this lineage, so it is complete.
Be sides that am i open for other Dzogchen lineages.


Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby Josef » Thu May 03, 2012 8:02 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
In Dzogchen does count the unbroken lineage, so important who did teached what.
All is inside this lineage, so it is complete.
Be sides that am i open for other Dzogchen lineages.


Mutsog Marro
KY[/color]


"The very close lineage of Dzogchen combines all lineages in the root Guru who demonstrates without error the instruction of tregchod and thögal."—Shakya Gyaltsen
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby beautiful breath » Fri May 04, 2012 8:20 am

@Dechen Norbu -
I believe your knowledge of Vajrayana may not be deep enough for me to explain this in a few line


You'd be surprised... :)

But seriously, took VY Empowerment in 94. Only relatively recently become disillusioned. So, this being relatively 'public' I am happy to discuss more re Vajrayana.
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby beautiful breath » Fri May 04, 2012 8:24 am

heart wrote:
beautiful breath wrote:
heart wrote:The pragmatism you "imagine" in the Pali Cannon. There is a current trend in Buddhism that are trying to make the Buddha look like a boring self-help book, I guess that is your inspiration. But what is the point of struggling with Tibetan Buddhism I wonder? I am sure you can find a Theravada temple and go there and study.

/magnus


Sorry, I 'see' pragmatism in the Pali Canon. Also I am not subscribing to any perception of the who the Buddha was. So with respect your predictions are incorrect on both counts.

So anyway...........the fact of the matter is nobody knows? If the Buddha taught Vajrayana then surely we'd know in much the same way that we know he taught whats in the Pali Canon. Don't get all precious people, I am only asking a valid question here. :thanks:

What I am hearing currently is Tibetan Buddhism should really be called "The tibetan take on what the Buddha taught with a prikling of Bon and Hinduism"

Is that fair?


I think you are pretty rude and I sincerely doubt you have a serious interest in any kind of Buddhism. If you had you would be busy studying, contemplating and meditating according to the tradition you prefer instead of wasting our time.

Bye!
/magnus


No idea where you got 'rude' from out of my posts. On the contrary, I respect everyone in here - thats why I am seeking help. Your projections my friend. Anyway.
Bye!
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby beautiful breath » Fri May 04, 2012 8:31 am

I guess I feel a little like a Christian struggling to decide between being a Methodist or a Roman Catholic. I can see the benefits of both traditions (Mahayana and the Theravada) but also - right or wrong - see then as completely different (apart from the fundamentals that is).

Sorry if I have come across as 'rude' to anyone - I really cannot see how I have done that.

:namaste:
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby beautiful breath » Fri May 04, 2012 8:43 am

Anyway, I was thinking a little more about this when I woke up this morning and have got a little closer to understanding my issues a little more.

When reading and studying Emptiness I experience getting closer to understanding the way things are. It gives me a sense of OK(ness) as I start to see things as illusory and transparent. Those of you who have had these experiences know what I mean. I don't find these teachings in the Theravada so this is possibly where my reticence re that tradition comes from. So far as I can see and feel the Prasangika's have it sewn up re Shunyata.

But then I occasionally go to stay at a Theravadin Monastery here in the West of England. Its so beautiful there and the regime appeals to me. We will enter the Shrine room at about 5am, no Pujas, no chanting, just sit quietly trying not to disturb the others. Then follow the breath. Thats it. An hour later the bell will go and we may chant the Metta Sutta or similar after some other aspirational reading from the Suttas....then off we go.

That really appeals to me. But it lacks the intellecual stimulation that reading Nargajuna for example has. Am I making any sense at all here? My practice is currently inert because of this.

BB
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby Paul » Fri May 04, 2012 9:17 am

beautiful breath wrote:But then I occasionally go to stay at a Theravadin Monastery here in the West of England. Its so beautiful there and the regime appeals to me. We will enter the Shrine room at about 5am, no Pujas, no chanting, just sit quietly trying not to disturb the others. Then follow the breath. Thats it. An hour later the bell will go and we may chant the Metta Sutta or similar after some other aspirational reading from the Suttas....then off we go.

That really appeals to me. But it lacks the intellecual stimulation that reading Nargajuna for example has. Am I making any sense at all here? My practice is currently inert because of this.

BB


I personally like completely simple practice over big pujas. But I also like the occasional big ceremony. Tibetan Buddhism definitely still has simplicity in some of its methods of practice - so maybe you should just follow those.

There is a point to the big noisy methods though - its so you don't get attached to having to be quiet and peaceful. That can be a really big obstacle.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri May 04, 2012 10:46 am

beautiful breath wrote:Anyway, I was thinking a little more about this when I woke up this morning and have got a little closer to understanding my issues a little more.

When reading and studying Emptiness I experience getting closer to understanding the way things are. It gives me a sense of OK(ness) as I start to see things as illusory and transparent. Those of you who have had these experiences know what I mean. I don't find these teachings in the Theravada so this is possibly where my reticence re that tradition comes from. So far as I can see and feel the Prasangika's have it sewn up re Shunyata.

But then I occasionally go to stay at a Theravadin Monastery here in the West of England. Its so beautiful there and the regime appeals to me. We will enter the Shrine room at about 5am, no Pujas, no chanting, just sit quietly trying not to disturb the others. Then follow the breath. Thats it. An hour later the bell will go and we may chant the Metta Sutta or similar after some other aspirational reading from the Suttas....then off we go.

That really appeals to me. But it lacks the intellecual stimulation that reading Nargajuna for example has. Am I making any sense at all here? My practice is currently inert because of this.

BB


Beautiful Breath, here's my take:

I can totally understand where you're coming from. Basically, it seems like you're saying you most prefer to practice developing a calm state (and perhaps some insight?), and you enjoy developing loving kindness, but you're not into what you perceive as elaborations, such as deity visualization, mantra recitation, offerings, etc. But I would ask you to consider that our true nature is not simply a calm state of clarity. It also involves dynamic manifestation, even while that manifestation is empty of real existence. That manifestation side of the coin is as real a part of our true nature as is emptiness. If we just focus on just getting into a calm, focused state and developing some loving kindness, we will certainly decrease the strength of the passions, we will certainly be less likely to harm others; and if we develop some insight into our own emptiness of self, we can stop the wheel of rebirth, thus benefitting ourselves completely. But we will be very limited in our ability to benefit (in an ultimate way) any of the countless sentient beings in samsara.

Conversely, if we gain realization of emptiness a la prasangika and we're able to integrate with the enlightened basis for body, speech, and mind--all three, and their inseparability--then we can gain the ability not only to gain our own freedom but also to spontaneously manifest in an unlimited way to benefit the countless beings of samsara--that is, in as many forms and types of forms as there are beings to be tamed, for as long as there are such beings. Vajrayana (and here I'm including Mahamudra and Dzogchen) is the only path to lead directly to that accomplishment; other Buddhist paths lead indirectly there, meaning those who practice the shravakayana and bodhisattvayana paths will, upon reaching the pinnacle realization of the bodhisattva path,receive empowerment from all the Buddhas and realized ones and take on practice at the Vajrayana level (at a level of realization far surpassing any of us ordinary Vajrayana practitioners, for sure, and wayyy less time than us) and from there realize complete Buddhahood a la Vajrayana. So, if one wishes to benefit all beings, and one has the capacity to understand and practice Vajrayana, then Vajrayana would be the best route because one starts where other paths end up and one can attain complete Buddhahood in a very short time--possibly in a single lifetime.
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby Andrew108 » Fri May 04, 2012 7:49 pm

beautiful breath wrote:Ok to recap - there is no definitive answer.....ok :shrug:

So, another way of putting this is this: ....My understanding of Tantric teachings is that they're the 'highest' form of teaching available. These are the 'only' way to acheive 'FULL' enlightenment as opposed to a measely 'Liberation' LOL! Also if you cannot control your sleep (clearl light experience etc...) then how are you going to control your death, intermediate state and rebirth? Especially given that swatting a fly out of anger createss the cause to be reborn in 'Hell'...........can you see my point here? If all of the above is true and correct the Theravadins are wasting their time as are other Mahayanists that are not practicing the Vajrayana.

You can't make statements that imply that Vajrayana is the top of the teaching tree mixed with (not so) veiled threats of hell relams and expect people (like me) to be confused?

BB


Yes I think you are right in what you have said here. By itself there is no vehicle that is superior. All dharma practice is contrived to a certain extent. Pop over to the Nyingma forum and see the post on dharma as a placebo.
Personally I have great respect for Aj Sumehdo. I can't think that somehow his understanding of 'dharma' is limited compared to a vajrayana practitioner's. But then on the Vajrayana and Mahamudra side there is a western practitioner called Rigdzin Shigpo - and I don't think his understanding of 'dharma' is less that Aj Sumehdo's.
If I wanted to be a monk I would go with Therevadans - if my path was renunciation. If I wanted to work and practice then I would study the view of the so-called higher vehicles. But which ever path we take there are always the two results - self-liberation and love. Thats where we end up. So it's all good as long as the teacher is genuine and genuine dharma is our focus.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby emptydreams » Tue May 08, 2012 12:55 pm

For vajrayanists, please remember that part of the bodhisattva vows involve not trying to convince people that vajrayana is more supreme compared to other traditions. All of the Buddha's teachings ultimately lead to enlightenment and we should allow people to choose the path that they feel comfortable in. Its fine to explain but not to compare as it would lead to more misunderstandings as the previous page has demonstrated.

As for your question on tantras, there is no way to check them out except study Vajrayana under a teacher and then getting the CORRECT instructions from them. That is true investigation, so to say that we should investigate teachings before we accept them does not apply to vajrayana as you have to accept them before investigating them. it is understandable that some people would find this scary as it is the opposite of what they would like to think on Buddhism but hey, Vajrayana isnt for everyone which is the reason why its teachings are not open as it leaves a lot of room for misunderstandings as they are extremely powerful and direct teachings. IF we cannot even stomach the more direct teachings from the Buddha, and skip certain lines even in sutra teachings because it makes us feel weird, what about more powerful teachings that force us to face a part of us? and whats more these teachings are a like a recipe: skip one step and everything falls apart.

here's an introduction to tantra by someone who has practiced and mastered them, far more credible from people who had never took the teachings before and then judge the teachings:

Translated by Gavin Kilty. Prepared by Michael Lewis. Printed in From Tushita, edited and published by Michael Hellbach, Tushita Editions, 1977.

The Relationship between Buddhist Tantra and Hindu Tantra

Although some scholars have maintained that Buddhist tantra was derived from Hinduism, this is not correct. The theory, prevalent among those who adhere to the tenets of the Hinayana, is based on a superficial resemblance of various elements of the two systems, such as the forms of the deities, the meditations on psychic veins and airs, the fire rituals, etc. Though certain practices, like the repetition of mantras, are common to both Hindu and Buddhist tantric traditions their interpretation, i.e. the inner meaning, is vastly different. Furthermore, Buddhist tantra is superior because, unlike Hinduism, it contains the three principal aspects of the Path: renunciation, the enlightened attitude and the right philosophy.

To elaborate: as even animals want freedom from suffering, there are non-Buddhist practitioners who wish to be free from contaminated feelings of happiness and so cultivate the preparatory state of the fourth absorption (Dhyana). There are even some non-Buddhists who temporarily renounce contaminated feelings of happiness and attain levels higher than the four absorptions. However, only the Buddhists renounce all these as well as neutral feelings and all-pervasive suffering. Then by meditating on the sufferings together with their causes, which are mental defilements, they can be abandoned forever. This is why, while non-Buddhists meditate on the form and formless states and attain the peak of worldly existence, samadhi, they cannot abandon the mental defilements of this state. So, when they meet with the right circumstances anger and the other passions develop, karma is created and the wheel of the circle of rebirth begins to turn.

Because of this and similar reasons, such practices are not fit to be included in the Mahayana. They resemble neither the common sutra path comprising: the attitude of renunciation which wishes for freedom from the cycle of rebirths; the wisdom which correctly understands egolessness, which is the right philosophy acting as an opponent to ignorance-the root of cyclic existence; and the development of the mind which aims for complete enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings; nor do they resemble the practices of the exclusive tantric path of the Great Vehicle.

The Origin of Tantra

The tantras were spoken by the Buddha himself in the form of his supreme manifestation as a monk, also as the great Vajradhara and in various manifestations of the central deity of specific mandalas. The great beings, Manjushri, Samantabhadra, Vajrapani and others, urged by the Buddha, also taught some tantras.

In terms of the four classes of tantra, the Kriya tantras were taught by the Buddha in the form of a monk, in the realm of the thirty-three gods on the summit of Mt. Meru, and in the human world where Manjushri and others were the chief hearers.

The Pung-Zang tantras were taught in the realm of Vajrapani. Others were taught by the teacher, Buddha himself, and with his blessings some were explained by Avalokiteshvara, Manjushri and Vajrapani while others were spoken by worldly gods.

The Carya tantras were also taught by the teacher Buddha in the form of his supreme manifestation in the celestial realms and in the realm called Base and Essence Adorned with Flowers.

The Yoga tantras were taught by the Enlightened One when he arose in the form of the central deity of each mandala in such places as the summit of Mt. Meru and in the fifth celestial realm of desire.

The Anuttara tantras were also taught by the Buddha. In the land of Ögyan the Buddha, having manifested the mandala of Guhyasamaja, taught King Indrabodhi this tantra. The Yamantaka tantras were taught by the teacher Buddha at the time of the subduing of the demonic forces and they were requested by either the consort of Yamantaka or by the consort of Kalacakra. The Hevajra tantra was taught by Lord Buddha when he arose in the form of Hevajra in the land of Madgadha at the time of destroying the four maras. The tantra was requested by Vajragarbha and by the consort of Hevajra. Having been requested by Vajra Yogini, the Buddha, in the manifestation as Heruka on the summit of Mt. Meru, taught the root tantra of Heruka and, when requested by Vajrapani, taught the explanatory tantra. As for the Kalacakra tantra, the mighty Buddha went south to the glorious shrine of Dharnacotaka and there, manifesting the mandala of the Dharmadhatu speech surmounted by the mandala of Kalacakra, taught this tantra to King Chandrabhadra and others. Although he appeared in many different manifestations, actually the tantras were taught by the enlightened teacher, Lord Buddha.

What happens during an initiation

In the initiations of each of the four classes of tantra there are many differences, some great and some small, and so therefore one initiation is not sufficient for all mandalas. At the time of initiation some fortunate and qualified disciples, when receiving the initiation from a qualified master, develop the wisdom of the initiation in their mind streams. Unless this happens, sitting in initiation rows and experiencing the initiations of the vase and water, etc. will implant instincts to listen to the Dharma but little else. An initiation is necessary to study tantra because if the secrets of tantra are explained to someone who has not received initiation, the guru commits the seventh tantric root downfall and the explanation will be of no benefit whatsoever to the mind of the disciple.

The relationship between Sutra and Tantra

Regarding renunciation and bodhicitta, there is no difference between Sutrayana and Tantrayana, but regarding conduct there is. Three kinds of conduct have been taught: the disciple who admires and has faith in the Hinayana should separate himself from all desires; the disciple who admires the Mahayana should traverse the stages and practice the perfections; while he who admires the deep teachings of tantra should work with the conduct of the path of desire.

From the point of view of the philosophy, there is no difference in emptiness as an object of cognition but there is a difference in the method of its realization.

In the sutra tradition the conscious mind engages in meditative equipoise on emptiness, while in tantra the innate wisdom, an extremely subtle mind, is involved and the difference therefore is great. The main practice of Sutrayana, engaging in the path as a cause to achieve the form body and wisdom body of a buddha, is the accumulation of wisdom and virtue for three countless eons and the accomplishment of one’s own buddhafields. Therefore, Sutrayana is known as the causal vehicle. In tantra one concentrates and meditates, even while still a beginner, on the four complete purities which are similar to the result—that is, the completely pure body, pure realm, pure possessions and pure deeds of an enlightened being. Thus tantra is known as the resultant vehicle.

The Four Traditions

As for the sutra tradition, the explanation of the Hinayana and Mahayana is the same in all the four great traditions. Also, as far as the preliminary practices are concerned, there are no differences apart from the names. In the Gelug tradition they are called the Stages of the Path of the Three Motives; in the Kargyü they are known as the Four Ways to Change the Mind; the Sakya refer to Separation from the Four Attachments; while the Dri-gung Kargyu speak of the Four Dharmas of Dag-pa and the Five of Dri-gung.

In tantra, the individual master’s way of leading the disciples on the path depends on his experience and the instructions of the tantric root texts, together with the commentaries of the great practitioners. These result in the entrance into practice being taught a little differently. However, all are the same in
leading to the final attainment of the state of Vajradhara.

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Re: Still struggling...

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Tue May 08, 2012 1:19 pm

All the traditions have methods for attaining complete realization.
Sometimes you like the qualities of vajrayana, sometimes mahayana, sometimes theravada.
This has nothing to do with the qualities of the teachings.
It has to do with your own karma, where you are, what you need, and where you are headed.
It's stupid for a person to say "if you have this one, you can't have that one".
That really makes the infinite dharma very limited.

Vajrayana is called 'superior' (a translated concept and prone to misunderstanding) not because it is better.
The method of vajrayana uses direct looking at the mind itself as the path. That's all.
And you don't have to buy the whole vajrayana package sight unseen.
Study it, learn from teachers, find a teacher and ask lots of questions, see if it is what you want.

The only true path of Buddhism that you practice, ultimately,
is the path that you are on.
Dharma gets form-fitted and customized to fit your own mind.
.
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby kirtu » Tue May 08, 2012 1:40 pm

beautiful breath wrote:can you see my point here? If all of the above is true and correct the Theravadins are wasting their time as are other Mahayanists that are not practicing the Vajrayana.


No Theravadins and common Mahayanins are not wasting their time at all. Their practice can result in liberation in this lifetime. It's just that Vajrayana holds that they can't attain full enlightenment. For that matter people who enter the lower tantras can't either in one lifetime. And people who don't follow the higher tantras very well don't attain enlightenment for 16 or 32 lifetimes.

People seriously practicing the Buddhadharma at a level appropriate for them are not wasting their lives.

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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby emptydreams » Tue May 08, 2012 2:43 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:All the traditions have methods for attaining complete realization.
Sometimes you like the qualities of vajrayana, sometimes mahayana, sometimes theravada.
This has nothing to do with the qualities of the teachings.
It has to do with your own karma, where you are, what you need, and where you are headed.
It's stupid for a person to say "if you have this one, you can't have that one".
That really makes the infinite dharma very limited.

Vajrayana is called 'superior' (a translated concept and prone to misunderstanding) not because it is better.
The method of vajrayana uses direct looking at the mind itself as the path. That's all.
And you don't have to buy the whole vajrayana package sight unseen.
Study it, learn from teachers, find a teacher and ask lots of questions, see if it is what you want.

The only true path of Buddhism that you practice, ultimately,
is the path that you are on.
Dharma gets form-fitted and customized to fit your own mind.
.
.
.


Thus there are very often a guideline on how to check a teacher and what to look for in a teacher. I meant that there is no way of checking out tantra unless you have a teacher.

Vajrayana is more effective because it requires the practitoner to use ALL available aspects of their body, speech and mind and because of the pre requisite of a teacher where a teacher will not allow a student to rest in his or her delusions and thus more effort is put in.

Theravarda and Mahayana are perfect traditions themselves and are meant for different kinds of people. The Buddha's teachings are always perfect, but what is the level of our minds to be able to accept the different teachings? Some people cannot bear for a friend to even as so much hint to their weakness, how can they take direct teachings that point out their weakness? The Buddha thought about them and preached in a way where they can accept.
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Re: Still struggling...

Postby beautiful breath » Thu May 10, 2012 1:24 pm

Hi All...and apologies for not responding - its been a busy week!

I still feel like we're skimming around the issue rather than answering it definitively. The two schools are so far apart in their approach so as to seem completely different. Simply put - Vajrayana does (however you dress it) fill the mind with more concepts, ideas Mantras Yantras etc...we know this - and without going into too much details (for obvious reasons) these are apparently tools for Tantra. But I maintain that sitting quietly after a few gentle prayers 'feels' more conducive to me.

So do it then I hear you say.

But then there's the carrot on the end of the Vajrayana stick...if you want to control your death and re-birth then you will have to practice this way. I dunno, I just find it all very confusing to the point where I have stopped doing anything at all to be frank.

I am scared that I may be averting my attention from massively important teachings and practices. But equally concerned that if I do immerse myself in them I may be adding more furniture into my prison cell rather than trying to escape!

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