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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 5:39 pm 
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I'm wondering about protocols involving protectors in various lineages. A while ago, a kagyu friend told me that he is required to give a physical offering to the protectors every day - i.e. it's not a good idea to call on protectors without making an offering. Since then, I have been kind of hesitant to do any practice that calls on protectors, although I know the same rules don't apply in DC. What I'm wondering is - does this difference characterize general difference in how kagyu vs. nyingma deal with protectors? Or is it an example of ChNNR's always going for the essence of the teachings?

A related question:
When sitting down to eat, sometimes I like to do a short tsog offering verse. If there is no separate plate for the 3 jewels (b/c it's not a formal tsog), is it ok to do a verse that includes offerings to protectors? The concern here is making the offering to protectors, and then actually eating the offering!

p.s. I hope this question is appropriate for a public forum. Please let me know if it's not!


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:38 pm 
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For question #2, keep a ser-khyem in your kitchen or dining room. Then, once the food is prepared, add a small bit from each of the dishes. Then you can say your tshog prayer. You don't need to make an entire plate. If you don't have a ser-khyem, any small plate dedicated to that purpose and not used for anything else will do fine.

Good luck and best wishes.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:44 pm 
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It is different in Kagyu lineage. They have more ceremonial and ritual style, like offering many Tormas, each one specially decorated in a complicating and symbolic manner.

Image
Image

However, it is always fine if we visualize infinite mental offerings.

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Last edited by Dronma on Sat May 05, 2012 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:59 pm 
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dakini_boi wrote:
I'm wondering about protocols involving protectors in various lineages. A while ago, a kagyu friend told me that he is required to give a physical offering to the protectors every day - i.e. it's not a good idea to call on protectors without making an offering. Since then, I have been kind of hesitant to do any practice that calls on protectors, although I know the same rules don't apply in DC. What I'm wondering is - does this difference characterize general difference in how kagyu vs. nyingma deal with protectors? Or is it an example of ChNNR's always going for the essence of the teachings?


You do not need to do protector offerings at all in the DC. Why? It is because the job of the protectors is to protect the transmission and the transmission lives in you. Therefore, they protect you. So you don't have to do anything.

Protectors do not eat tea and biscuits. They do not require fancy tormas.

Of course, sometimes it is useful to contact the guardians, for example, if you do something stupid which causes a problem in the transmission. Then you can purify this with guardian practice. Or if there is an obstacle to your practice, then you can make offerings to the guardians.

But the idea that guardians are jealous gods who might punish you because you don't feed them everyday is a very primitive concept. Therefore, in the DC we do not worry about it so much.

And, you should never be afraid to do guardian practice. They are guardians after all. They will never harm you.

N

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Last edited by Malcolm on Sat May 05, 2012 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:17 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
But the idea that guardians are jealous gods who might punish you because you don't feed them everyday is a very primitive concept. Therefore, in the DC we do not worry about it so much.

N


Yes, exactly! :thumbsup:
Nevertheless, it is not good (like Rinpoche says) to correct practitioners from other lineages. Each one has to follow the instructions which he/she got from his/her Guru. ;)

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:18 am 
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Dronma wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
But the idea that guardians are jealous gods who might punish you because you don't feed them everyday is a very primitive concept. Therefore, in the DC we do not worry about it so much.

N


Yes, exactly! :thumbsup:
Nevertheless, it is not good (like Rinpoche says) to correct practitioners from other lineages. Each one has to follow the instructions which he/she got from his/her Guru. ;)


I wasn't correcting anyone, I was answering his question.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:23 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
I wasn't correcting anyone, I was answering his question.


Yes, of course, I know.
Likewise, I was not correcting you either! :smile:

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~ Padmasambhava ~


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:29 am 
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Thank you all.

Namdrol, this is what I figured, and you have set my mind at ease. Is this generally how guardian offerings are regarded in other Dzogchen-heavy Nyingma lineages?

Also, is it even necessary to have a separate plate for the 3 roots when doing (informal) tsog by oneself or in a small group?


Last edited by dakini_boi on Sat May 05, 2012 12:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:34 am 
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dakini_boi wrote:
Thank you all.

Namdrol, this is what I figured, and you have set my mind at ease. Is this generally how guardian offerings are regarded in other Dzogchen-heavy Nyingma lineages?

Also, is it even necessary to have a separate plate for the 3 roots when doing (informal) tsog by oneself or in a small group?


If you are doing a Ganapuja then follow the instructions in the book for doing Ganapujas.

If you are turning your meal into a Ganapuja there is no need for a seperate plate, just make sure you leave some remainder.

Most Nyingma lineages are into daily offerings and this sort of thing. AFAIK, ChNN is unique in his approach to guardians.

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http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:39 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
If you are turning your meal into a Ganapuja there is no need for a seperate plate, just make sure you leave some remainder.


Is this remainder to be regarded as the 3-roots offering, or the offering of the remainders, or both?

Thank you, as usual, your input is invaluable in demystifying these things.


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:49 am 
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dakini_boi wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
If you are turning your meal into a Ganapuja there is no need for a seperate plate, just make sure you leave some remainder.


Is this remainder to be regarded as the 3-roots offering, or the offering of the remainders, or both?

Thank you, as usual, your input is invaluable in demystifying these things.



Just a remainder offering. Three roots are inside you, as well as protectors

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 10:23 am 
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Clear and logical, thanks!

Namdrol wrote:

You do not need to do protector offerings at all in the DC. Why? It is because the job of the protectors is to protect the transmission and the transmission lives in you. Therefore, they protect you. So you don't have to do anything.

Protectors do not eat tea and biscuits. They do not require fancy tormas.

Of course, sometimes it is useful to contact the guardians, for example, if you do something stupid which causes a problem in the transmission. Then you can purify this with guardian practice. Or if there is an obstacle to your practice, then you can make offerings to the guardians.

But the idea that guardians are jealous gods who might punish you because you don't feed them everyday is a very primitive concept. Therefore, in the DC we do not worry about it so much.

And, you should never be afraid to do guardian practice. They are guardians after all. They will never harm you.

N


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 4:33 pm 
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Yes, thank you. Very clear and simple!


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 5:27 pm 
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I see this is about Dzogchen Community, but there has been some comments from non DC. So I'm throwing this in. It has helped me a lot to offer daily spirits and meat. This was something I did to overcome obscurations to the transmission. It's something that I continue to do. My other motivation is thanksgiving to the guardians.


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 5:28 pm 
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Dronma wrote:
It is different in Kagyu lineage. They have more ceremonial and ritual style, like offering many Tormas, each one specially decorated in a complicating and symbolic manner.

Image
Image

However, it is always fine if we visualize infinite mental offerings.


You should see Lama Tharchin's tormas. Nyingma's do some really amazing elaborations on this theme.

http://rinchenbarwa.com/tormas.html


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 6:26 pm 
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In the Dzogchen Community, can Naggon or Ngagkong be done just by itself, with wine and meat offerings?

(For example if we currently don't have sufficient time for Tun's or Ganapuja's)


By the way, an older thread that might be useful for anyone who hasn't read it:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6203#p72718


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 7:59 pm 
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Just realized that the answer is probably not, regarding that^^^, as we would most likely have to be transformed as a Deity for Ngagkong to be effective.

What is the best way to contact the Guardians without transforming (meaning if we have screwed up in relation to the transmission and/or practice somehow, but are horrible at Tun practices) ?


Alexander Berzin wrote that the pathways of our channels should be "greased" beforehand, through Generation and Completion stage practices, before taking up the practice of Dzogchen (not to say that they have to be perfected, just "greased").

However if we currently don't have time for Tun's and Generation & Completion practices, it seems that basic Shamatha, Rushens, Yantra Yoga, and Guru Yoga (complemented by Vajra Recitation throughout the day) would achieve the same (and of course always dedicating the merit for all sentient beings).


Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Sat May 05, 2012 8:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 8:12 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
You should see Lama Tharchin's tormas. Nyingma's do some really amazing elaborations on this theme.

http://rinchenbarwa.com/tormas.html


Thanks for the link, deepbluehum! :smile:
Yes, I have seen Tormas by Nyingmas as well. I mentioned Kagyu lineage, since dakini_boi was talking about her Kagyu friend in the first post.
I also have learned how to make some simple Tormas many years ago, when it was necessary for my practice.
There are certain reasons for these elaborate preparations of offerings and they can produce particular results for the practitioner.
That's why I said before that every one has to follow the instructions which he/she got from his/her Guru.

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 9:19 pm 
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Lhug-Pa wrote:
J
What is the best way to contact the Guardians without transforming (meaning if we have screwed up in relation to the transmission and/or practice somehow, but are horrible at Tun practices) ?



You don't have to do Tun practice in order to generate yourself as the deity. If you are a dzogchenpa, presumably you have received direct introduction and understand the view. So you should have some level of confidence that your natural state is no different than the deity. With that in mind, you can transform in an instant, using the seed syllable.

I guess that doesn't address the question of the best way to contact the guardians - but having transformed in that way, you can contact the guardians, make offerings, etc.


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 9:37 pm 
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I see, thanks, that makes sense.

In that case, for contacting the Guardians, is any (Wrathful) Deity we've received transmission for good for contacting the Guardians?

Which also brings us back to the question:

"In the Dzogchen Community, can Naggon or Ngagkong be done just by itself, with wine and meat offerings?

"(For example if we currently don't have sufficient time for Tun's or Ganapuja's)"

Transforming with the Seed-Syllable and doing Ngagkong with empowered wine & meat offerings, even without a formal Tun or Ganapuja, seems to be a good simple way to contact the Guardians if we've made mistakes; that is if this is not seen as inventing something (which we should all know is not a good thing to do).

Keeping in mind that even if we don't do entire Thun's, it's best to still do the Nine-Purification-Breathings and Guru Yoga before any practice or set of practices.


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