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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:49 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Will wrote:

So you find little or no usefulness in the 3 stage prajñā of Literary, leading to Contemplative leading to Real Mark prajñā?


Well, your first category is misleading, śruthih means "hearing" and "listening". It does not mean studying books. To whom should we listen? A person qualified to give teachings. The prajñā that results is called "śrutamayī prajñā". Without this vital step, no amount of reading books will awakening the prajñā of the path.

Then we have the prajñā that comes from reflection, cintā-mayī prajñā. In my estimation, reading may constitute a part of this prajñā.

Then finally, you have bhāvanā-mayī prajñā, the prajñā born of practice.

But the exercise by some to become expert in the tenet systems of this or that ancient Abidharma schools, for example, or to become expert in pramāṇa, and so on, completely misses the mark of Dharma practice and realization.

I don't say these things idly. I say these things because I observe many people over the years, westerners as well as so called Geshes, Lamas, Khenpos and so on, who, while being quite expert in myriad ancient opinions about this and that fine point of Buddhist philosophy, nevertheless never succeed in integrating the meaning of the Dharma into their personal life. And so for these people, Dharma remains a religion and a culture, rather than a personal experience.

N


̄


Well said. Namdrol is becoming a great man.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:26 pm 
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Quote:
Namdrol: I don't say these things idly. I say these things because I observe many people over the years, westerners as well as so called Geshes, Lamas, Khenpos and so on, who, while being quite expert in myriad ancient opinions about this and that fine point of Buddhist philosophy, nevertheless never succeed in integrating the meaning of the Dharma into their personal life. And so for these people, Dharma remains a religion and a culture, rather than a personal experience.


Granted - even obvious of course.

Then why pick on intellectuals or readers of Dharma books (dang those silly transcribers of talks) when the problem is really little or no "integration of the Dharma into their personal life." Leading a shallow non-Dharma life in spite of vast numbers of sadhanas, initiations or Dharma talks heard, still occurs constantly among Buddhist non-intellectuals & non-readers

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:36 pm 
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Will wrote:

Then why pick on intellectuals or readers...


Because while it is understandable that those with little or no education in Dharma might not have integrated Dharma into their life, it is inexcusable of those who are well educated.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:57 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Will wrote:

Then why pick on intellectuals or readers...


Because while it is understandable that those with little or no education in Dharma might not have integrated Dharma into their life, it is inexcusable of those who are well educated.


The well educated haven't overcome their emotional afflictions which is the main hindrance to incorporating Dharma into daily life (including the excuse that I don't have any time).

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:24 am 
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If I ever manage to integrate Dharma into my ego just do me a favour and shoot me.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:10 am 
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maybay wrote:
If I ever manage to integrate Dharma into my ego just do me a favour and shoot me.


Consider yourself shot.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:14 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
Will wrote:

So you find little or no usefulness in the 3 stage prajñā of Literary, leading to Contemplative leading to Real Mark prajñā?


Well, your first category is misleading, śruthih means "hearing" and "listening". It does not mean studying books. To whom should we listen? A person qualified to give teachings. The prajñā that results is called "śrutamayī prajñā". Without this vital step, no amount of reading books will awakening the prajñā of the path.



Actually, Namdrol, I believe that Will is not using the system of three prajñā that include "hearing", but is using another common system found in the far East, for which his English terms are quite accurate.

~~ Huifeng

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:05 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
Will wrote:

Then why pick on intellectuals or readers...


Because while it is understandable that those with little or no education in Dharma might not have integrated Dharma into their life, it is inexcusable of those who are well educated.


So when I wrote "vast numbers of sadhanas, initiations or Dharma talks heard" - they still provide "little or no education in Dharma"? Pretty grim picture - reading books suck, thinking sucks, listening to Dharma sucks, practice & wongs suck etc.

Methinks you are just frigging burnt out intellectually and projecting.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:12 am 
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Greetings,

deepbluehum wrote:
Well said. Namdrol is becoming a great man.

I do find this 2012 model Namdrol an improvement on earlier models.

:thumbsup:

A victory for personal experience of the timelessness of dependent arising over tenet system prapanca perhaps?

:twisted:

Maitri,
Retro. :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:58 am 
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This thread reminds me about the story of the man struck by a poisonous arrow. At the end of the day all this intellectualization is useless and Buddhism just becomes another hobby :(


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 1:54 pm 
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Will wrote:
So when I wrote "vast numbers of sadhanas, initiations or Dharma talks heard" - they still provide "little or no education in Dharma"? Pretty grim picture - reading books suck, thinking sucks, listening to Dharma sucks, practice & wongs suck etc.


Reciting large stacks of sadhana is not Dharma.
Reading large volumes of sutras and shastras is not Dharma.
Visting teachers is not Dharma.
Receiving empowerments is not Dharma.
Taking vows and precepts is not Dharma.
This is all conceptual proliferation.
Dharma is understanding your real condition.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Will wrote:
So when I wrote "vast numbers of sadhanas, initiations or Dharma talks heard" - they still provide "little or no education in Dharma"? Pretty grim picture - reading books suck, thinking sucks, listening to Dharma sucks, practice & wongs suck etc.


Reciting large stacks of sadhana is not Dharma.
Reading large volumes of sutras and shastras is not Dharma.
Visting teachers is not Dharma.
Receiving empowerments is not Dharma.
Taking vows and precepts is not Dharma.
This is all conceptual proliferation.
Dharma is understanding your real condition.


My goodness - how simple - no need for conditionality, merit, purification, devotion or the conceptual mind - Dharma is Buddha. :roll:

Pithy sayings are the enemy of understanding like the perfect is the enemy of the better. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:49 pm 
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Will wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Will wrote:
So when I wrote "vast numbers of sadhanas, initiations or Dharma talks heard" - they still provide "little or no education in Dharma"? Pretty grim picture - reading books suck, thinking sucks, listening to Dharma sucks, practice & wongs suck etc.


Reciting large stacks of sadhana is not Dharma.
Reading large volumes of sutras and shastras is not Dharma.
Visting teachers is not Dharma.
Receiving empowerments is not Dharma.
Taking vows and precepts is not Dharma.
This is all conceptual proliferation.
Dharma is understanding your real condition.


My goodness - how simple - no need for conditionality, merit, purification, devotion or the conceptual mind - Dharma is Buddha. :roll:

Pithy sayings are the enemy of understanding like the perfect is the enemy of the better. ;)


I am just echoing the words of Sakya Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen:

    Freedom from extremes is beyond knowledge, expressions and objects;
    Madhyamaka, Cittamatra, etc.,
    expressions in words are proliferations.
    Thoughts in the mind are concepts,
    the nature is inexpressible and unthinkable.
    For as long as views continue to exist,
    there is no liberation from all suffering.
    Conceptuality is great ignorance,
    it is said one sinks into the ocean of samsara.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:19 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Visting teachers is not Dharma.
Receiving empowerments is not Dharma.

Dharma is understanding your real condition.


However, when you visit teachers or receive empowerments, it is much easier to get an understanding of your real condition. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:24 pm 
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Clarence wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Visting teachers is not Dharma.
Receiving empowerments is not Dharma.

Dharma is understanding your real condition.


However, when you visit teachers or receive empowerments, it is much easier to get an understanding of your real condition. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.



I never said don't receive transmission and teachings. I am saying, turn your dharma teachings and transmissions in Dharma. Use them to understand yourself. Don't leave them as an intellectual pursuit. For the most part, every dharma text I ever studied, am studying, and will study, was for the purpose of understanding something about my path, about myself, my own state. I learned Tibetan to enhance my practice, not to become a skilled translator who is expert in dancing on books (though I am pretty good). I did not learn Dharma to come to places like Dharma wheel and have debates. So I am pointing out that Buddhist Philosophy, the intellectual study of Buddhism divorced from a path, is a waste of time. If you want to study Madhyamaka, first understand how it is relevant to solving the Buddha's existential question: what is suffering, it's cause, it's cessation and the path. If you keep this in mind, then this study becomes Dharma.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:47 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
maybay wrote:
If I ever manage to integrate Dharma into my ego just do me a favour and shoot me.


Consider yourself shot.


I always thought of you as the goal-keeper. What should the fans think when they see him shooting goals with the forwards?

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:01 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
I never said don't receive transmission and teachings. I am saying, turn your dharma teachings and transmissions in Dharma. Use them to understand yourself. Don't leave them as an intellectual pursuit. For the most part, every dharma text I ever studied, am studying, and will study, was for the purpose of understanding something about my path, about myself, my own state. I learned Tibetan to enhance my practice, not to become a skilled translator who is expert in dancing on books (though I am pretty good). I did not learn Dharma to come to places like Dharma wheel and have debates. So I am pointing out that Buddhist Philosophy, the intellectual study of Buddhism divorced from a path, is a waste of time. If you want to study Madhyamaka, first understand how it is relevant to solving the Buddha's existential question: what is suffering, it's cause, it's cessation and the path. If you keep this in mind, then this study becomes Dharma.


this should be required reading. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:05 pm 
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maybay wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
maybay wrote:
If I ever manage to integrate Dharma into my ego just do me a favour and shoot me.


Consider yourself shot.


I always thought of you as the goal-keeper. What should the fans think when they see him shooting goals with the forwards?


Sorry, sports metaphors are lost on me, among many other things, like for example, what your point is.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:13 pm 
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maybay, you were warned once. I won't warn you again. Don't be disruptive and stop provoking Namdrol. It seems that's all you've been doing in this thread.
:focus:


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:22 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
I never said don't receive transmission and teachings. I am saying, turn your dharma teachings and transmissions in Dharma. Use them to understand yourself. Don't leave them as an intellectual pursuit. For the most part, every dharma text I ever studied, am studying, and will study, was for the purpose of understanding something about my path, about myself, my own state. I learned Tibetan to enhance my practice, not to become a skilled translator who is expert in dancing on books (though I am pretty good). I did not learn Dharma to come to places like Dharma wheel and have debates. So I am pointing out that Buddhist Philosophy, the intellectual study of Buddhism divorced from a path, is a waste of time. If you want to study Madhyamaka, first understand how it is relevant to solving the Buddha's existential question: what is suffering, it's cause, it's cessation and the path. If you keep this in mind, then this study becomes Dharma.


this should be required reading. Thanks.


Seconded! Very nice indeed.


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