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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:58 pm 
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mzaur wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:
What isn't "damned starkly simple" is why you then become conscious if you happen to die. Or if you have an NDE, for instance, with your brain functions completely impaired. Namdrol provided an interesting hypothesis from the tantras. .


Have you ever died?


Your picture of Samantabhadra has the legs cut off. I would change it.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:10 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:

The relative truth, if you know it's just relative, and knows it's an illusion, then is not avidya anymore isn't it? [Unity of two truths to the rescue!]


This is the flaw of tregchö.


Thregcho and togal are inseparable. I feel this notion of a flaw, no two truths and such comes from thinking thregcho is its own path and togal is something different.



Yes, of course, in a real sense there is no tregchö without thogal and vice verse; but nevertheless, Longchenpa devotes many pages to criticizing tregchơ in comparison with thögal.

The "no two truths" thing comes form my master, ChNN. But also in it is stated the same in the Dzogchen tantras.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:47 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
This is the flaw of tregchö.


Thregcho and togal are inseparable. I feel this notion of a flaw, no two truths and such comes from thinking thregcho is its own path and togal is something different.



Yes, of course, in a real sense there is no tregchö without thogal and vice verse; but nevertheless, Longchenpa devotes many pages to criticizing tregchơ in comparison with thögal.

The "no two truths" thing comes form my master, ChNN. But also in it is stated the same in the Dzogchen tantras.


Yes. I think the flaw comes from treating thregcho as a path. It's not so much a flaw if one wants to practice like that, of course it's beneficial. But one will not realize the true meaning of exhaustion of phenomena without togal or some other practice with special treatment of the subtle aspects of the channels and bindu.

BTW, as fascinating and l33t as togal is, it's pretty difficult, as in super difficult. The postures are awkward. I think very few people will make to the final phase. Pranayama methods are a lot easier, and can be a lot more comfortable and easier on the eyes.

No two truths is part of the Dzogchen direct approach, bypassing intellectual arbitration and go straight into the experience. From the standpoint of direct perception, there is only one truth. But consider the consequence...

What it implies is that even avidya is vidya, and the Kagyu masters are vindicated once again. I see all this as a loop.


Last edited by deepbluehum on Tue May 01, 2012 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:50 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:

BTW, as fascinating and l33t as togal is, it's pretty difficult, as in super difficult. The postures are awkward. I think very few people will make to the final phase. Pranayama methods are a lot easier, and can be a lot more comfortable and easier on the eyes.


Any effort in togal at all will gaurantee that one will attain buddhahood in the bardo.

Can't say that about pranayāma.

N

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:52 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:

BTW, as fascinating and l33t as togal is, it's pretty difficult, as in super difficult. The postures are awkward. I think very few people will make to the final phase. Pranayama methods are a lot easier, and can be a lot more comfortable and easier on the eyes.


Any effort in togal at all will gaurantee that one will attain buddhahood in the bardo.

Can't say that about pranayāma.

N


A good argument to do both.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:23 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:

BTW, as fascinating and l33t as togal is, it's pretty difficult, as in super difficult. The postures are awkward. I think very few people will make to the final phase. Pranayama methods are a lot easier, and can be a lot more comfortable and easier on the eyes.


Any effort in togal at all will gaurantee that one will attain buddhahood in the bardo.

Can't say that about pranayāma.

N


A good argument to do both.


Pranayāma is important.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:27 pm 
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Location: Magga ~ Path to Liberation.
Its plausible that certain areas of the brain are "activated" or "energized" when engaged in Buddhist meditation and other practices of conscious-awareness.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:57 pm 
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Wesley1982 wrote:
Its plausible that certain areas of the brain are "activated" or "energized" when engaged in Buddhist meditation and other practices of conscious-awareness.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-wuOYlxMSY


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 1:07 am 
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Let's keep on topic fellows. :focus:
NDE's, meditation/ science and all that stuff can be discussed in the Lounge, if you want.
I for one would like to keep this discussion focused.

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:50 am 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
I for one would like to keep this discussion focused.

Thanks.

:good:

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:27 am 
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Namdrol wrote:

In a real sense, however there is neither mind no matter. Mind and matter are equally produced through non-recognition of the basis i.e. essence, nature and energy.

N


Is this saying that our 'reality' is the non-recognition of the basis? And if the basis is recognized then is this a recognition of another alternative 'reality'? When it comes to recognition of the base does it make sense to talk about it as being a 'reality' that can be known?

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:33 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:

BTW, as fascinating and l33t as togal is, it's pretty difficult, as in super difficult. The postures are awkward. I think very few people will make to the final phase. Pranayama methods are a lot easier, and can be a lot more comfortable and easier on the eyes.


Any effort in togal at all will gaurantee that one will attain buddhahood in the bardo.



Why is this so?


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:32 am 
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deepbluehum wrote:

BTW, as fascinating and l33t as togal is, it's pretty difficult, as in super difficult. The postures are awkward.



the "duck" is easy.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:39 am 
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Namdrol wrote:

Any effort in togal at all will gaurantee that one will attain buddhahood in the bardo.

N



isn't it more like if one dies while at the level of first vision one will be reborn in a pure realm where one will live for 500 years practising dzogchen ?

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 1:24 pm 
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Andrew108 wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

In a real sense, however there is neither mind no matter. Mind and matter are equally produced through non-recognition of the basis i.e. essence, nature and energy.

N


Is this saying that our 'reality' is the non-recognition of the basis? And if the basis is recognized then is this a recognition of another alternative 'reality'? When it comes to recognition of the base does it make sense to talk about it as being a 'reality' that can be known?


What our impure vision is a result of not recognizing the basis. When we fully recognize and then integrate with the basis, then our impure vision vanishes.

If the basis could not be recognize, liberation would not be possible.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 1:26 pm 
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alpha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

Any effort in togal at all will gaurantee that one will attain buddhahood in the bardo.

N



isn't it more like if one dies while at the level of first vision one will be reborn in a pure realm where one will live for 500 years practising dzogchen ?


That will happen only if, for some reason, you were not able to recognise the appearances of the bardo of dharmatā as being your own state.

You ought to read Birth, Life and Death by ChNN.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:56 pm 
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Quote:
If the basis could not be recognize, liberation would not be possible.

Or is it that liberation is possible because the base cannot be recognized? :smile:

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:34 pm 
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Andrew108 wrote:
Quote:
If the basis could not be recognize, liberation would not be possible.

Or is it that liberation is possible because the base cannot be recognized? :smile:


No, that is not how it is taught in Dzogchen.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:09 pm 
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So the recognition is not discriminating? More like knowing the flavor of the base?

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Andrew108 wrote:
So the recognition is not discriminating? More like knowing the flavor of the base?


Recognition is prajñā.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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