Understanding of the Natural State

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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby heart » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:52 pm

alpha wrote:
heart wrote:
alpha wrote:i would say that there is at least one line of instruction which has to be added to the advice written on the picture.
This piece of advice is absolutely fundamental,esential and can make the difference between seeing your nature or remaining fixated in a dualistic kind of way.
So as far as i know and was instructed this is not "the whole picture" :smile:


Whatever you add is just elaborations, it is not in the words you know.

/magnus


sure,is not in the words but that has to be said in words.


Not really, the main point with these kind of instructions it to cut through our fascination with the world. When mind (sem) turns on itself it simply collapse. In that moment rigpa is spontaneously present. Either you recognize or you don't. There really don't need to be any verbal instruction at all for the direct introduction to take place.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:06 pm

heart wrote:There really don't need to be any verbal instruction at all for the direct introduction to take place.
/magnus


I do not agree with this in terms of ordinary people.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:28 pm

Magnus wrote:
In that moment rigpa is spontaneously present. Either you recognize or you don't. There really don't need to be any verbal instruction at all for the direct introduction to take place.

/magnus




Tashi delek,

As far i do know is a Dzogchen Lineage of the utmost importance for receiving the correct instructions.

For instance :

Regarding the experienced thigles one can get attached to the appearance, it is nice etc. This is sure for the mistaken view but not for the right self-liberatring view.

These can the Master correct because he builts up with you a relationship and that is here receiving blessings out of the Lineage because for instance in my case, this person is our collective ZZNG Rigdzin also Yongdzin called here. So unthinkable to do it home made. Wrong start can cause madness in Dzogchen....... :o

So with or without the Dzogchen Lineage is here for Dzogchenpas crucial, the core.


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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby heart » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:44 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Magnus wrote:
In that moment rigpa is spontaneously present. Either you recognize or you don't. There really don't need to be any verbal instruction at all for the direct introduction to take place.

/magnus




Tashi delek,

As far i do know is a Dzogchen Lineage of the utmost importance for receiving the correct instructions.



Of course it is. But to recognize your the natural state there is no need to hold a concept in mind.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby heart » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:55 pm

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:There really don't need to be any verbal instruction at all for the direct introduction to take place.
/magnus


I do not agree with this in terms of ordinary people.


The first time I read that was like 25 years ago in "The crystal and the way of the light" I was a bit chocked, but I have come to accept it fully. Also, sometimes I think that there are no "ordinary" people that are interested in Dzogchen. :smile:

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:01 pm

heart wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Magnus wrote:
In that moment rigpa is spontaneously present. Either you recognize or you don't. There really don't need to be any verbal instruction at all for the direct introduction to take place.

/magnus




Tashi delek,

As far i do know is a Dzogchen Lineage of the utmost importance for receiving the correct instructions.



Of course it is. But to recognize your the natural state there is no need to hold a concept in mind.

/magnus



Tashi delek,

Like earlier mentioned, Lopon Lak' s interpretation about the so called "concept" .

Further the main point here is that one must undergo an introduction about the knowing of the Natural State.

This contains:
To be introduced to or know the NS, IS when one can realize what the NS is and one is clearly able to understand what one is knowing and are able to keep it and be familiar with your own Nature; that means you have been introduced and realized to one' s own Nature.


This implies instruction to correct wrong views and that is the deal we have.

To be or not to be in this State is a personal wrong or right experience and therefore frequent contact, sure one deals here about self-awareness and that is personal experienced and by nobody else, maybe is it this what is meant by you.


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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:04 pm

heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:There really don't need to be any verbal instruction at all for the direct introduction to take place.
/magnus


I do not agree with this in terms of ordinary people.


The first time I read that was like 25 years ago in "The crystal and the way of the light" I was a bit chocked, but I have come to accept it fully. Also, sometimes I think that there are no "ordinary" people that are interested in Dzogchen. :smile:

/magnus


A more clear presentation is presented in song of the vajra book.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby heart » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:27 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:

To be or not to be in this State is a personal wrong or right experience and therefore frequent contact, sure one deals here about self-awareness and that is personal experienced and by nobody else, maybe is it this what is meant by you.

Mutsog Marro
KY


Yes, it is a direct personal experience. But since bliss, clarity and non-thought easily arises in this experience it can cause us to create a concept of the natural state.We might also exaggerate this state, thinking we met God or maybe some aliens, or denigrate it thinking it is nothing special at all. For this reason many teachings are indeed necessary.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:08 pm

I prefer the Bon style myself. The nonconceptual trekcho view grows from thogal. So they have an attitude of "who cares" when it comes to explanations and translations. This is the Bon forum and not the place to advertise for ChNN IMHO. So here, you can call it awareness, self-awareness, or as Shabkar Rinpoche says, even "Self." Names are not important. And in a real sense, for the Bon approach, names don't help. The introduction comes through the method, not words. Hence, the criticism LTN lodges against The Choegyal.
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:02 pm

deepbluehum wrote:I prefer the Bon style myself. The nonconceptual trekcho view grows from thogal. So they have an attitude of "who cares" when it comes to explanations and translations. This is the Bon forum and not the place to advertise for ChNN IMHO. So here, you can call it awareness, self-awareness, or as Shabkar Rinpoche says, even "Self." Names are not important. And in a real sense, for the Bon approach, names don't help. The introduction comes through the method, not words. Hence, the criticism LTN lodges against The Choegyal.



Tashi delek,

Thanks for the replies.

Could you please explain:
- The nonconceptual trekcho view grows from thogal?


Thanks at beforehand :)

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby Paul » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:18 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:I prefer the Bon style myself. The nonconceptual trekcho view grows from thogal. So they have an attitude of "who cares" when it comes to explanations and translations. This is the Bon forum and not the place to advertise for ChNN IMHO. So here, you can call it awareness, self-awareness, or as Shabkar Rinpoche says, even "Self." Names are not important. And in a real sense, for the Bon approach, names don't help. The introduction comes through the method, not words. Hence, the criticism LTN lodges against The Choegyal.



Tashi delek,

Thanks for the replies.

Could you please explain:
- The nonconceptual trekcho view grows from thogal?


Thanks at beforehand :)

Mutsog Marro
KY


If I remember correctly, before Longchenpa togal was taught befor trekcho.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:28 pm

deepbluehum wrote: So here, you can call it awareness, self-awareness, or as Shabkar Rinpoche says, even "Self."


This is a very common mistunderstanding of Shabkar.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:32 pm

Paul wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:I prefer the Bon style myself. The nonconceptual trekcho view grows from thogal. So they have an attitude of "who cares" when it comes to explanations and translations. This is the Bon forum and not the place to advertise for ChNN IMHO. So here, you can call it awareness, self-awareness, or as Shabkar Rinpoche says, even "Self." Names are not important. And in a real sense, for the Bon approach, names don't help. The introduction comes through the method, not words. Hence, the criticism LTN lodges against The Choegyal.



Tashi delek,

Thanks for the replies.

Could you please explain:
- The nonconceptual trekcho view grows from thogal?


Thanks at beforehand :)

Mutsog Marro
KY


If I remember correctly, before Longchenpa togal was taught befor trekcho.



Tashi delek,

Seen out of our mind here and now we discuss in dualities like Trekchod and Thogal. But they are inseparable connected in the view.

So questionable would be why this interdependency the first and the sequential second?
Further did i understood that Trekchod would be the base, but also only seen in a certain Dzogchen Cycle....

- In which Dzogchen cycle was this teached before Longchenpa?

Mutsog Marro
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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby deepbluehum » Tue May 01, 2012 12:59 am

Namdrol wrote:
deepbluehum wrote: So here, you can call it awareness, self-awareness, or as Shabkar Rinpoche says, even "Self."


This is a very common mistunderstanding of Shabkar.


A mistranslation?
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby deepbluehum » Tue May 01, 2012 1:09 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tashi delek,

Thanks for the replies.

Could you please explain:
- The nonconceptual trekcho view grows from thogal?


Thanks at beforehand :)

Mutsog Marro
KY


You know the answer already. Thogal and trekcho are inseparable. In one sense trekcho is the view and the fruit, nonattachment, exhaustion of phenomena. Same as it is described in Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha. Thogal is the method for getting that realization. So as you go through the phases of thogal, obviously the realization of the view expands. Sang ye. Purified and expanded. FYI there are methods out there that cause the bindu of five lights to arise relying on methods other than thogal or longde. There are methods that totally blur the lines between lineages and yanas. You know in some sense, thogal is not a perfect method. It's almost too sharp. And it can leave some scars. There are ways to mollify that, and round it out. Tashi delek!
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby Jinzang » Tue May 01, 2012 1:37 am

heart wrote:Also, sometimes I think that there are no "ordinary" people that are interested in Dzogchen. :smile:


Don't kid yourself.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 01, 2012 1:40 am

deepbluehum wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
deepbluehum wrote: So here, you can call it awareness, self-awareness, or as Shabkar Rinpoche says, even "Self."


This is a very common mistunderstanding of Shabkar.


A mistranslation?



The idea that calling vidyā "self" will get you to where you want to go.

The purpose of that passage (which is largely cribbed from the cycle connected with the bardo thos grol) is to point out that all these different systems are aimed an discovering the real state. It does not mean that they are all equally successful in their endeavor.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby deepbluehum » Tue May 01, 2012 1:52 am

Namdrol wrote:

The idea that calling vidyā "self" will get you to where you want to go.

The purpose of that passage (which is largely cribbed from the cycle connected with the bardo thos grol) is to point out that all these different systems are aimed an discovering the real state. It does not mean that they are all equally successful in their endeavor.

N


I agree. I wasn't saying it was. My take on Shabkar's point is that words cannot be mistaken for the view. Garuda is about Dzogchen obviously. Saying vidya is not going to get you vidya either. Neither will knowing the definition. I'm saying there is wiggle room and you could even use the word "Self" as Saraha did. In that case, he was sort of tongue in cheek, but in context, you get the point of mahamudra. Like that.
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 01, 2012 2:17 am

deepbluehum wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

The idea that calling vidyā "self" will get you to where you want to go.

The purpose of that passage (which is largely cribbed from the cycle connected with the bardo thos grol) is to point out that all these different systems are aimed an discovering the real state. It does not mean that they are all equally successful in their endeavor.

N


I agree. I wasn't saying it was. My take on Shabkar's point is that words cannot be mistaken for the view. Garuda is about Dzogchen obviously. Saying vidya is not going to get you vidya either. Neither will knowing the definition. I'm saying there is wiggle room and you could even use the word "Self" as Saraha did. In that case, he was sort of tongue in cheek, but in context, you get the point of mahamudra. Like that.


Well, if you know the actual definition of vidyā, than this means you have that knowledge.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby heart » Tue May 01, 2012 8:17 am

Jinzang wrote:
heart wrote:Also, sometimes I think that there are no "ordinary" people that are interested in Dzogchen. :smile:


Don't kid yourself.


I am not, the point being that there are a lot of strange people interested in Dzogchen.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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