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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Amitabha
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:06 pm 
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Ryoto wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:
then the same can be said about those in amitayus pureland because they are not enlightened they have not eradicated all unusayas they are also still apart of the triple realm.




It is difficult to say that the buddhafields are part of samsara. They are more like an inverse image of purgatory.

N


According to Dzogchen.


The notion of buddha fields is complicated -- there are pure buddha fields, like Sukhavati, and impure buddhafields, like this Saha universe (Shakhyamuni's buddhafield). Preparing a buddhafield is part of the deeds of a bodhisattva -- and in the case of Bodhisattva Dipamkara, his buddhafield, Sukhavati, came with certain gaurantees. One main difference between for example the Śuddhavasas, the realms of non-returners, and Sukhavati, is that one can take rebirth here or elsewhere.

There is of course a teaching about buddhafields in Dzogchen, but it is quite different than this.

N

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Amitabha
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Huifeng wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:
the pureabode isnt apart of the 3 realms of samsarasan its a place of NON RETURN NONE RETROGRESSION,



Perhaps in Theravada it is not considered part of the three realms. However, in Sarvastivada it is.

N


Still is in Theravada, too.

Though, non-return (anagamin) =/= non-retrogression (avinivartaniya).
The former is a term for sravaka-phala, the latter as a stage on bodhisattva path.

~~ Huifeng


rIght, I know, but I don't think our friend, Buddhaputra, is much interested in listening to anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Amitabha
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:20 pm 
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The pure abodes are seen in theravada as part of samsara and are rupa-loka and are, as indicated by others, part of samsara, and cause of rebirth is reaching the fourth jhana. Above the pure abodes are arupa loka. Source:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Amitabha
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:52 am 
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Son of Buddha wrote:

actually im attempting to show others (on topic) the origins of amiyabha and his pureland. it seems that many are trying compare him to zorerastorism (azura mazda) and it seems we are trying to look outside Buddhism to explain why amithba Buddha and his pureland came into being.


No one in this thread has stated that, but were just discussing that others had thought that.

Quote:
the CONCEPT of pureland and amitayus CAN and is in Buddhidm (ALL FORMS of Buddhism)


The "Pure Land" is not in Theravada. This has already been addressed by me and other members.

Quote:
instead of looking for a "land" (OUTSIDE of Buddhism)that their is NO RETROGRESSION,and a land where their is NO anger or sensual desire,where Buddhist go and stay till they reach enlightnement,instead of trying to FIND this in other religions to explain where our Buddha and OUR pureland came from. why are we not trying to find this in our own "supposed" oldest documents????

you do realise that ifthe CONCEPT of amitabha buddha and his pureland is supported in ALL of Buddhism then it shows the ATHENTICITY of this teaching and CANNOT be claimed to be a COPY of anouther religion,although if the CONCEPT of the pureland cannot be found in ALL scriptures of Buddhism(palicanon to mahayana canon)then one might say it is not Buddhism in CONCEPT or practice.


I don't recall a statement in this thread from a member stating they believed that Amitabha or the Pure Land came from outside Buddhism. If you feel insecure about it, I recommend reading Prof. Jan Nattier's "The Indian Roots of Pure Land Buddhism":

it is now clear that there is no need to appeal to “foreign influences” or “non-Buddhist borrowings” to
explain the rise of devotion to Amitåbha in India. On the contrary, we can see the emergence of his cult as the result of an ongoing process of
reflection—heavily informed, to be sure, by an ongoing series of visions reported by certain religious virtuosi—taking place within the Buddhist
community itself.


http://www.scribd.com/doc/76624652/The- ... an-Nattier

To me, sutras and tantras stand on their own merits.

Quote:
THIS IS THE APADANA SUTTA FROM THE KUNDHYA NIKAYA this is the CONCEPT of the pureland in thervadan(pali)


I read this at dhammawheel, and Venerable Hui Feng addressed it there:

Yes, similar to some Mahayana material. However, in the title of this thread, you use the phrase "Buddhapadana: Influence from Mahayanist????", but which way does the influence lie? When we look at the basic time periods of this material, we will see that much of it is actually before the Mahayana movement appeared. Thus, it is much more likely, and correct to say, that it is this sort of material that gradually developed into the Mahayana, rather than saying that the Mahayana influenced this material. These basic ideas were common throughout pretty much all the sectarian period pre-Mahayana Buddhist schools in India. There is not really much unusual about it.

The content of the Khuddhaka Nikaya has aways been somewhat in dispute. Different groups accept it or reject it, either in its entirety or in part. When compared to the material of other schools, it is obvious that the entire content is something of a later compilation. Though compilation dates and actual composition dates are different things. (eg. Suttanipata as later compilation, but parts are rather early composition.)

Quote:
in the bdk english tripitaka the 3 pureland sutras translated inagaki hisao
on page 65 he translates amitayus pureland as PUREABODES


No, he doesn't. You've taken it completely out of context:

Then the Buddha said to Ānanda and Bodhisattva Maitreya, “Have you
seen that land filled with excellent and glorious manifestations, all spontaneously
produced, from the ground to the Heaven of Pure Abode?”


"Have you seen that land..."

"...from the ground to the Heaven of Pure Abode"

"that land" is referring to the Pure Land that Amitayus displayed for Ananda:

Then he said to Śākyamuni Buddha, “World-honored One, I wish to see
that buddha, his Land of Peace and Bliss, and its hosts of bodhisattvas and
śrāvakas.”
As soon as he had said this, Amitāyus emitted a great light, which illuminated
all the buddha lands. The Encircling Adamantine Mountains, Mount
Sumeru, together with large and small mountains and everything else shone
with the same [golden] color. That light was like the flood at the end of the
period of cosmic change that fills the whole world, when myriads of things
are submerged, and as far as the eye can see there is nothing but the vast
expanse of water. Even so was the flood of light emanating from Amitāyus.
All the lights of śrāvakas and bodhisattvas were outshone and surpassed,
and only the Buddha’s light remained shining bright and glorious.
At that time Ānanda saw the splendor and majesty of Amitāyus resembling
Mount Sumeru, which rises above the whole world. There was no place
that was not illuminated by the light emanating from his body of glory. The
four groups of followers of the Buddha in the assembly saw all this at the
same time. Likewise, those of the Pure Land saw everything in this world.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Amitabha
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:37 pm 
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pure abodes and pureland are both apart of the (3 existances)The three realms of existence are: 1) The realm of the five components, 2) the realm of living beings, and 3) the realm of the environment (or land). (getting me confused on which terms im writing)

pureland and pureabodes are not apart of the (5 transmigations)hell,ghosts,animals,humans,gods pureaboeds is considered seperate from these transmigations.

pureland and pureabodes are both a land of non retrogression

in truth both pureabodes and pureland are both apart of samsarasan since the only way to truey be free from samsarasan is to be a Buddha .

the middle level of the middle grade after 7 days he become an stream enterer in the pureland

a man who goes to the pureabodes is equivilant to a man who enters the pureland at the middle level highest grade for one who is in a stage of non retrogression for realizing highest perfect enlightenment.

the pureabodes and pureland are both eternal lands with infinite life

the pureland is pure because of Amitabha Buddhas merit. the reason you are pure there is because you have received a BODY that has no negative conditions,or negative faculties for you to commit evil.your mind however is not perfect or pure many people have not even attained the level of stream enterer in the pureland and have to wait many years for that stage(middle level middle grade)

in the pureabodes the land is pure because the inhabitants of that lands minds are pure ALL have attained the middle level of the highest grade of pureland and wait for their predictions (highest level highest grade)

MR G as far as the larger sutra on page 65 he was describing the LAND from the ground to the heaven(sky) of the PURE ABODE if youcarfully read it this whole page is talking about the pureland of amitayus FOR HE ASKS HAVE YOU SEEN THAT LAND which is refering to the pureland this is correct THEN he goes into detail discribing the pureland or amitabha friom hte ground to the sky of the (pure abode)(refering to the pureland of amitayus). please read it in context sir.

also i provided scripture from the pali canon as evidence for this and your response was the same response thervadans use to try and state that the mahayana canon is FAKE cause it is a "later" addition,so if all the mahayana sutras are "later" additions from ur views they must be incorrect also??

i think it funny when evidence is provided from the pali canon that refutes your position you decide to call it a later edition implying that "later"editions are somehow fake :)

simply said if you cannot admit the similarityies between the pureland and pureabodes as found in the pali canon to the mahayana canon then i dont know what else to tell you other than a pure abodes person is eqivalant to a pureland middle level HIGHEST GRADE(after he has been their 7 days)

oh no brother im not insecure about the pureland (auspisious signs) :cheers:


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Amitabha
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:02 am 
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Son of Buddha wrote:
pure abodes and pureland are both apart of the (3 existances)The three realms of existence are: 1) The realm of the five components, 2) the realm of living beings, and 3) the realm of the environment (or land). (getting me confused on which terms im writing)

pureland and pureabodes are not apart of the (5 transmigations)hell,ghosts,animals,humans,gods pureaboeds is considered seperate from these transmigations.


Quote:
in truth both pureabodes and pureland are both apart of samsarasa


The pure abodes do not equal the Pure Land. The pure abodes are still within samsara. The Pure Land is outside of the three realms (arupa, rupa & kama loka). Yes, Maitreya is in Tushita heaven. However, that is a heaven, it is not Pure Land. According to Indian cosmology, Tushita is one of the heavens of the desire realm within the saha world-realm (lokadhatu), the "realm" where we dwell. However, Sukhavati exists far beyond the saha world-realm.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html

Now provide your citation.

Quote:
pureland and pureabodes are both a land of non retrogression


Ordinary people with afflictions cannot get to Tushita heaven. Ordinary people with afflictions can get to Sukhavati.

Quote:
the pureabodes and pureland are both eternal lands with infinite life


The lifespan of Tusita lasts 4000 heaven years, Sukhavati is limitless.

Quote:
in the pureabodes the land is pure because the inhabitants of that lands minds are pure ALL have attained the middle level of the highest grade of pureland and wait for their predictions (highest level highest grade)


That's right, for the pure abodes, they've cut off the five lower fetters: "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by Me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.

There are no fetters required to be cut to enter the Pure Land

Quote:
MR G as far as the larger sutra on page 65 he was describing the LAND from the ground to the heaven(sky) of the PURE ABODE if youcarfully read it this whole page is talking about the pureland of amitayus FOR HE ASKS HAVE YOU SEEN THAT LAND which is refering to the pureland this is correct THEN he goes into detail discribing the pureland or amitabha friom hte ground to the sky of the (pure abode)(refering to the pureland of amitayus). please read it in context sir


No, read it again. This is referring to the light emitted from Amitayus:

At that time Ānanda saw the splendor and majesty of Amitāyus resembling
Mount Sumeru, which rises above the whole world. There was no place
that was not illuminated by the light emanating from his body of glory. The
four groups of followers of the Buddha in the assembly saw all this at the
same time. Likewise, those of the Pure Land saw everything in this world.


Quote:
also i provided scripture from the pali canon as evidence for this and your response was the same response thervadans use to try and state that the mahayana canon is FAKE cause it is a "later" addition,so if all the mahayana sutras are "later" additions from ur views they must be incorrect also?? i think it funny when evidence is provided from the pali canon that refutes your position you decide to call it a later edition implying that "later"editions are somehow fake :)


It may have influenced the idea of the buddhakṣetra, however you are stretching it to say that Pure Abodes are equivalent to The Pure Land.

Quote:
simply said if you cannot admit the similarityies between the pureland and pureabodes as found in the pali canon to the mahayana canon


This is important...it's similar...not equivalent.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Amitabha
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:15 am 
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Mr. G wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:
pure abodes and pureland are both apart of the (3 existances)The three realms of existence are: 1) The realm of the five components, 2) the realm of living beings, and 3) the realm of the environment (or land). (getting me confused on which terms im writing)

pureland and pureabodes are not apart of the (5 transmigations)hell,ghosts,animals,humans,gods pureaboeds is considered seperate from these transmigations.


Quote:
in truth both pureabodes and pureland are both apart of samsarasa


The pure abodes do not equal the Pure Land. The pure abodes are still within samsara. The Pure Land is outside of the three realms (arupa, rupa & kama loka). Yes, Maitreya is in Tushita heaven. However, that is a heaven, it is not Pure Land. According to Indian cosmology, Tushita is one of the heavens of the desire realm within the saha world-realm (lokadhatu), the "realm" where we dwell. However, Sukhavati exists far beyond the saha world-realm.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html

Now provide your citation.

SORRY I HAVENT WROTE IN SOME TIME
MY REPLY:the pure abodes are in samsarasan and SO are the Purelands we are all in samsarasan until Buddhahood,why wouldnt you think the Pureland doesnt have (arupa,rupa,kama loka)?? put these in english then say the Pureland doesnt have these 3 things in it.
also Tushita heaven isnt a pureabode either so why are you useing it as such??

Quote:
pureland and pureabodes are both a land of non retrogression


Ordinary people with afflictions cannot get to Tushita heaven. Ordinary people with afflictions can get to Sukhavati.

MY REPLY:ordinary people can get into Tushita heaven with nothing but faith MAJJHIMA NIKAYA alagaddupama sutta you get into heaven thru faith in the Buddha

Quote:
the pureabodes and pureland are both eternal lands with infinite life


The lifespan of Tusita lasts 4000 heaven years, Sukhavati is limitless.

MY REPLY:again Tusita heaven isnt a pureabode so this doesnt apply to the conversation the Pureabodes are eternal and NONRETURNERS go their till they become Buddhas,they are called none returners cause they are not reborn anymore but stay in this pureabode till nirvana DIGHA NIKAYA mahaparinabbana sutta

Quote:
in the pureabodes the land is pure because the inhabitants of that lands minds are pure ALL have attained the middle level of the highest grade of pureland and wait for their predictions (highest level highest grade)


That's right, for the pure abodes, they've cut off the five lower fetters: "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by Me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.

There are no fetters required to be cut to enter the Pure Land

MY REPLY: i never said their was any to cut did I what I said is the person in the PURE ABODE has the samne attainment as those in the higherst PURELAND
what you are doing is this you are saying my HOUSE isnt a house because I only allow red cars in my driveway while you allow ALL CARS,it doesnt matter who is allowed into my house that doesnt make it a house the fact its a house make it thus(se what i mean)

Quote:
MR G as far as the larger sutra on page 65 he was describing the LAND from the ground to the heaven(sky) of the PURE ABODE if youcarfully read it this whole page is talking about the pureland of amitayus FOR HE ASKS HAVE YOU SEEN THAT LAND which is refering to the pureland this is correct THEN he goes into detail discribing the pureland or amitabha friom hte ground to the sky of the (pure abode)(refering to the pureland of amitayus). please read it in context sir


No, read it again. This is referring to the light emitted from Amitayus:

At that time Ānanda saw the splendor and majesty of Amitāyus resembling
Mount Sumeru, which rises above the whole world. There was no place
that was not illuminated by the light emanating from his body of glory. The
four groups of followers of the Buddha in the assembly saw all this at the
same time. Likewise, those of the Pure Land saw everything in this world.


MY REPLY;YES YES it is refering to the light and what is the light illuminateing?? from the groud to the sky of ther PUREABODE(again the light is illuminateing the PUREABODE which is a refernce to amitayus pureland.

Quote:
also i provided scripture from the pali canon as evidence for this and your response was the same response thervadans use to try and state that the mahayana canon is FAKE cause it is a "later" addition,so if all the mahayana sutras are "later" additions from ur views they must be incorrect also?? i think it funny when evidence is provided from the pali canon that refutes your position you decide to call it a later edition implying that "later"editions are somehow fake :)


It may have influenced the idea of the buddhakṣetra, however you are stretching it to say that Pure Abodes are equivalent to The Pure Land.

MY REPLY: sir the ONLY difference you have provided between the pureland and the pureabodes is that the pureland is easier to get into,that is it.(as far as the aspect of them being places of NON RETROGRESSION and being places where people stay till enlightenemnt,and being places that contain the (rupa,arupa,kama loka) they both are apart of(I seriously dont know why you even posted that tell me what these 3 things are then tell me the pureland doesnt have these aspects in it:)

Quote:
simply said if you cannot admit the similarityies between the pureland and pureabodes as found in the pali canon to the mahayana canon


This is important...it's similar...not equivalent.


MY REPLY:the ONLY differnce stated is the way you get into the house(pureland)as far as the lands beings the same you have not provided any evidence that says they are any different.simply said they are the same houses just one house is harder to get into(which is quite common amognst thervadan and mahayana)


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Amitabha
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:17 am 
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sorry i havent wrote in awhile were building up our sangha

also I'm not to good with the qouteing and format on these pages.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Amitabha
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:15 am 
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Son of Buddha wrote:
MY REPLY:the ONLY differnce stated is the way you get into the house(pureland)as far as the lands beings the same you have not provided any evidence that says they are any different.


Wrong. Read the last 5 pages. Why do you continue to ignore the points I bring up? Your understanding is incorrect.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Amitabha
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:24 am 
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Mr. G wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:
MY REPLY:the ONLY differnce stated is the way you get into the house(pureland)as far as the lands beings the same you have not provided any evidence that says they are any different.


Wrong. Read the last 5 pages. Why do you continue to ignore the points I bring up? Your understanding is incorrect.



MY REPLY:I didnt ignore the point you brought up I refuted them all.

"The lifespan of Tusita lasts 4000 heaven years, Sukhavati is limitless"

you can tell you dont have a clue what you are talking about by this right here
first you think Tusita heaven is a pureabode,which it isnt you see Tusita heaven isnt a place of NONRETURNERS,you already rpovided the evidenbce which refutes your own claim.
the pure abodes is a place of NON RETURNERS which means they NEVER leave the Pure abode or are reborn again how come you do not get this concept???
Tusita heaven is a HEAVEN for which you are REBORN again the people in Tusita heaven are NOT NON RETURNERS and are NOT in the PURE ABODE.
this sir is refuted.

MAJJHIMA NIKAYA Mahasihanada sutta
the pure abodes is a place that has NO LIFESPAN once you go their their is no more rebirth you stay their until enlightenment(just like the PURELAND)(unless u chose to leave as a Bodhisattva)
SUKHAVATI is Limitless and PUREABODES is Limitless
and again if you want post a link to a website that isnt posting the ACTUAL sutta then by all means go ahead then read the Sutta i posted and tell me which one has more athority?????the sutta or the website that is wrong.

the very fact you think Tusita is a pureabode shows you have zero understanding of this conversation to begin with.

and if you think the Pureland/pureabodes doesnt have a rupa,arupa,kama,loka then you obviously dont have concept of what these words mean.
in the Pureland of Amitayus we possess the Vajra god body as his vow as you can se sir we do have a RUPA in the pureland,honestly do I have to contine to discribe the rest??

and again the ONLY difference between the Pureland and the Pureabode is the manner in which you get into them,not the actual lands themselves which are the same in every detail.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Amitabha
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:39 pm 
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Getting back to the original post.

One can find definite proof that Amida Buddha is a real Buddha by reading the biography of Padmasambhava. He is also taught by all Tibetan schools and highly realized masters to be an emanation of Amida Buddha.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Amitabha
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:20 pm 
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It's actually tiresome responding to points which you fail to understand.

Son of Buddha wrote:
"The lifespan of Tusita lasts 4000 heaven years, Sukhavati is limitless"

you can tell you dont have a clue what you are talking about by this right here


Prof. Kenneth Tanaka writes in "Where is the Pure Land?":

    During the 7th century, Pure Land advocates such as Daochuo, Jiacai, and Huaigan asserted the superiority of Sukhavati over Maitreya's Tusita Heaven. Their arguments relative to the present discussion can be summarized as follows:

    1. While Sukhavati transcends the saha world-realm, Tusita (as one of the heavens of the desire realm) still lies within the saha world-realm.
    2. While the lifespan in Sukhavati is limitless, like that of the buddhas, and transcends samsara, the lifespan in Tusita lasts four thousand heaven years and, at the end of that time, one is forced back into the stream of samsara.
    3. While Sukhavati is a realm of nonretrogression, Tusita is not. Rebirth in Sukhavati assures not only attainment of buddhahood but also no retrogression to lower levels on the cultivational path (marga).

Quote:
first you think Tusita heaven is a pureabode,which it isnt you see Tusita heaven isnt a place of NONRETURNERS,you already rpovided the evidenbce which refutes your own claim.


Quote:
the very fact you think Tusita is a pureabode shows you have zero understanding of this conversation to begin with.


Quote:
and if you think the Pureland/pureabodes doesnt have a rupa,arupa,kama,loka then you obviously dont have concept of what these words mean.


Tusita is a deva realm:


Quote:
the pure abodes is a place of NON RETURNERS which means they NEVER leave the Pure abode or are reborn again how come you do not get this concept???


I have never said otherwise. You however are attempting to equate this pure abode to the Pure Land.

Quote:
Tusita heaven is a HEAVEN for which you are REBORN again the people in Tusita heaven are NOT NON RETURNERS and are NOT in the PURE ABODE.
this sir is refuted.


    anāgāmī: Non-returner. A person who has abandoned the five lower fetters that bind the mind to the cycle of rebirth (see saṃyojana), and who after death will appear in one of the Brahma worlds called the Pure Abodes, there to attain nibbāna, never again to return to this world.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html

You continue to think that heavenly realms are equivlant to the Pure Land. The Pure Land is outside the 3 Lokas. Ordinary people with afflictions cannot get to Tushita heaven. Ordinary people with afflictions can get to Sukhavati.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Amitabha
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:01 pm 
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No brother you equated the tushita heaven to the pureabodes,then tried to equal that to the pureland of amitayus,the Tushita heaven isnt a Pureabode so your equation is incorrect.
which is why I say your argument is flawed from the beggining,
also you say the pureabodes is from the Brahma worlds what sutta does it say this??????is this a flawed websites difinition of the pureabodes??
read the Pamadam Sutta,you neglect something very important the gods dont own the pureabode no more than the gods own the pureland of amitayus.
reading the larger sutra you will realise something very quick the Buddha vowed that we would all have the body of gods(Vajra gods)(brahma gods)
gods in the land of sukhavati and gods in the land of the pureabodes
just because a pureabode has gods in it doesnt make it a heaven no different than EVERYONE in sukhavati being gods doesnt make it a heaven.

now the tevijjia sutta the way to the highest god Brahma is to just follow the 4 immesurables(loving kindness) that is easy that doesnt include the 5 fetters which is harder and the way to the pure abodes.so you can see here the way to the highest brhama heaven is thru an easy path not the 5 fetters.

mahapadana sutta again look at the context "visits the gods of the Pureabodes" now if I were to visit the residence of Sukhavati i would say i visted the gods of Sukhavati since the EVERYONE their is a god.
the pureabode is not a land owned by gods no more than Sukhavati is a land owned by everyone their who is a god(and everyone in Sukhavati is a god)
this sutta makes it clear who is the one who is in charge of the pureabodes.

lastly check out the mahagovinda sutta where Pancasikha talks to the buddha about him and his students in a past life following the 4 immesurables and going to the brahma world(which was not one of NON RETURNERS cause they were reborn again)then the Buddha tells them that that path wil get them to the Brahma worlds BUT his path leads to enlightenement and those who have not fully mastewred his path will lead them to the PUREABODES right here is more proof of the seperation of the Brahma worlds and the Pureabodes.
mahasamaya sutta again pureabode gods are seperated from Brahma abode gods.

conclusion:
*just because a pure abode is filled with gods doesnt make it a brahma heaven/in Sukhavati EVERY resident is a god does that make that a Brahma heaven?
*is Pureabodes a Brahma world??no the Budha taught the path to the Brahma worlds was the 4 immeasurables(any brahma world) then he states his path doesnt lead to that but enlightenement and the PUREABODE for those who have not fully mastered it(mahagovinda sutta)
*who is in charge of the Brhama worlds?=Brahma who is in charge of the pure abodes?=Buddha
*is there any differnces between traditions of Theravadan and Mahayana (((((((yes)))))))) but when it comes to the land itself their is no difference both are a strictly buddhist place for Buddhists(hindus cant go to the pureabode or purelands)they are both a place or none returners(unless u chose to leave for bodhisattva vows)and they are both limitless.
*The Pure Land is outside the 3 Lokas,why cant you say 3 realms or 3 worlds of existance???also its not quite,the larger texts says LIKE nirvana not it is nirvana,and the ONLY thing/being that is outside samsarasan is the Buddha so if you are not a Buddha you are still in samsarasan(the land is a manifestation of the mind)so if you are not enlightened your mind still dwells in samsarasan,so no if an unlightened mind exists within the pureland then the pureland is not without samsarasan.(get what i'm saying)
the buddha mind is the only mind not in samsarasan it is enlightened
is all the minds in the pureland enlightened?if not then are their minds still in samsarasan??while the pureland doesnt have greed or hatred their is a reason they are not all Buddhas they still have ignorance=(samsarasan)

peace and love brother its nice talking to you,you gave me a reason to dust off those old pali canon texts i havent read in years,I was going to post passages but with the length of my writings i chose not to but instead opted for you to read them yourself.I respect you and love argueing with you.


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