Mind/Rigpa and body relation

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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Dronma » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:22 pm

Sally Gross wrote:I've just realised that this is in fact the Asokan inscription which was preserved in Kandahar, and which has apparently disappeared. The Wiki link used Hebrew letters to transcribe the Aramaic, but I'd be interested in seeing a transcription into the script which is actually used.

Greek would be a good language for translations, as would Syriac (largely because it borrows philosophical concepts and sometimes terms from Greek). The trouble is that comparatively few people read Greek nowadays, and several orders of magnitude less read Syriac. Ideally, Sanskrit, or Pali or one of the other Sanskrit-related Prakrits would do best of all from the point-of-view of accurate translation of key concepts, given that so much of the Tibetan literature draws on a stock of concepts originally found in Sanskrit; but this hardly helps most of us because few of us know Sanskrit, Pali or cognate languages. That being the case, English probably yields the widest readership and serves the purpose best in practical terms, something for which I, as someone whose first language is English, am grateful. A century or two down the line, who knows which languages might be on the rise and may, pragmatically, be a better vehicle for propagation of this literature than English at that time? :reading:


Yes, Sally. It is exactly as you are saying.
There is NO perfect language for translating the Dharma teaching. There are only proper Precious Vases for accepting and realizing it, or not. Languages and terminologies are depended on the time and the conventional karmic reasons, which always appear and then disappear. Nobody can boast that his mother-tongue is better than other languages.
Although there are some ancient languages on the Earth, which are considered to be the linguistic roots of the others.
As for the transcription of the Asokan inscription, is the following in Greek and Aramaic - including the English translation:

Transcription
Greek (transliteration)


1. δέκα ἐτῶν πληρη[....]ων βασι[λ]εὺς
2. Πιοδασσης εὐσέβεια[ν ἔδ]ε[ι]ξεν τοῖς ἀν-
3. θρώποις, καὶ ἀπὸ τούτου εὐσεβεστέρους
4. τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐποίησεν καὶ πάντα
5. εὐθηνεῖ κατὰ πᾶσαν γῆν• καὶ ἀπέχεται
6. βασιλεὺς τῶν ἐμψύχων καὶ οἱ λοιποὶ δὲ
7. εἲ τινες ἀκρατεῖς πέπαυνται τῆς ἀκρα-
8. σίας κατὰ δύναμιν, καὶ ἐνήκοοι πατρὶ
9. καὶ μητρὶ καὶ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων παρὰ
10. τὰ πρότερον καὶ τοῦ λοιποῦ λῶιον
11. καὶ ἄμεινον κατὰ πάντα ταῦτα
12. ποιοῦντες διάξουσιν.

English (translation)

1. Ten years (of reign) having been completed, King
2. Piodasses (Ashoka) made known (the doctrine of)
3. Piety (εὐσέβεια, Eusebeia) to men; and from this moment he has made
4. men more pious, and everything thrives throughout
5. the whole world. And the king abstains from (killing)
6. living beings, and other men and those who (are)
7. huntsmen and fishermen of the king have desisted
8. from hunting. And if some (were) intemperate, they
9. have ceased from their intemperance as was in their
10. power; and obedient to their father and mother and to
11. the elders, in opposition to the past also in the future,
12. by so acting on every occasion, they will live better
13. and more happily." (Trans. by G.P. Carratelli ])

Aramaic

1. שנן 10 פתתיתו עביד זי מראן פרידארש מלכא קשיטא מהקשט
2. מן אדין זעיר מרעא לכלהם אנשן וכלהם אדושיא השבד
3. ובכל ארקא ראמשתי ואף זי זנה במאכלא למראן מלכא זעיר
4. קטלן זנה למחזה כלהם אנשן אתהחסינן אזי נוניא אחדן
5. אלך אנשן פתיזבת כנם זי פרבסת הוין אלך אתהחסינן מן
6. פרבסתי והופתיסתי לאמוהי ולאבוהי ולמזישתיא אנסנ
7. איך אסרהי חלקותא ולא איתי דינא לכלהמ אנשיא חסין
8. זנה הותיר לכלהמ אנשן ואוסף יהותר.
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sally Gross » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:01 pm

Thank you, Dronma.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Adamantine » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:15 pm

Namdrol wrote:
That is why I just use vidyā in the same way that we use dharmakāya, etc.


Yeah, that seems to be the safest bet-- just stick to vidyā or rigpa-- the people that aren't already familiar with the term will do the necessary research, if it isn't already provided in a footnote or glossary of the text in question. Better to make the reader work harder and develop the right interpretation rather than make it easier and cause misunderstanding.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:55 am

Adamantine wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
That is why I just use vidyā in the same way that we use dharmakāya, etc.


Yeah, that seems to be the safest bet-- just stick to vidyā or rigpa-- the people that aren't already familiar with the term will do the necessary research, if it isn't already provided in a footnote or glossary of the text in question. Better to make the reader work harder and develop the right interpretation rather than make it easier and cause misunderstanding.



Tashi delek,

It is not at all the so called "safest way". Like Namdrol did point out, is the usage of terms related to the Dzogchen Lineage, which should be kept like it is and was namely pure.

Therefore some Dzogchen Masters explain Rigpa like this or like that.
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=8084

One can study the lineage like that from Garab Dorje / Prahe vajra but never can mix it up with another Dzogchen Lineage, because that lineage would not be pure anymore, if the Dzogchen Lineage would do so.

So it would be for Bonpos not ok to use Sanskrit for their Zhang Zhung language based Dzogchen terms whereas that is ok inside Indian Dzogchen.......


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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:09 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:So it would be for Bonpos not ok to use Sanskrit for their Zhang Zhung language based Dzogchen terms whereas that is ok inside Indian Dzogchen.......
Of course, that makes perfect sense, I mean they are talking about a different Dzogchen anyway. Everybody knows that there is a state of being for Tibetans and a state of being for Indians right? As for anybody outside of those two ethnic groups... TOUGH! I mean why make it understandable to everybody, right? :rolleye:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sönam » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:28 am

In the case of Dzogchen terms, they originated from Oddiyana, not India ... Vimalamitra and other pandits went to see Garab Dorje from Nalanda. So is it not better to use Tibetan words?

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:37 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:So it would be for Bonpos not ok to use Sanskrit for their Zhang Zhung language based Dzogchen terms whereas that is ok inside Indian Dzogchen.......

Of course, that makes perfect sense, I mean they are talking about a different Dzogchen anyway. Everybody knows that there is a state of being for Tibetans and a state of being for Indians right? As for anybody outside of those two ethnic groups... TOUGH! I mean why make it understandable to everybody, right? :rolleye:



Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

- What do you understand by:"They are talking about different Dzogchen" ?

The making understandable to everybody can happen easy, if these teachings are taken /teached not mixed up. For instance even the use of Kuntu Zangpo and Samantabhadra seems to be better if not translated, IMO. Does that make sense?

Yes if we tae the advice from Lopon Tenzin Namdak serious and take Tibetan language for Tibetan Dzogchen.
I guess that Tibetan is sufficient for understanding but the "different" lineages are here the missing link.
Here i also know that Tibetan Dzogchen does not exist it came all from abroad.

So what is realy of Tibetan origin? :shock:


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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby muni » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:49 am

By focus (=clinging) on apprehended =>language, nationality; then there is 'me having a problem'.

How to translate and be aware while...oh, how knowing wakefulness, nondual awareness ah what... have a nice day!

At least there can be respect for the liberating teaching which now arrived in the west since 50-60 years. No need to be like a shameless, all better knowing-wolf in a trap who bites till death those who try to get him out.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:10 am

muni wrote:By focus (=clinging) on apprehended =>language, nationality; then there is 'me having a problem'.

How to translate and be aware while...oh, how knowing wakefulness, nondual awareness ah what... have a nice day!

At least there can be respect for the liberating teaching which now arrived in the west since 50-60 years. No need to be like a shameless, all better knowing-wolf in a trap who bites till death those who try to get him out.



Tashi delek,

- What is this liberating teaching?

Please explain further if possible:

- No need to be like a shameless, all better knowing-wolf in a trap who bites till death those who try to get him out.
- What is the trap
- What/who is/are the wolf (ves)
- Who is what who liberates the wolf ?

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:21 am

Sönam wrote:In the case of Dzogchen terms, they originated from Oddiyana, not India ... Vimalamitra and other pandits went to see Garab Dorje from Nalanda. So is it not better to use Tibetan words?

Sönam




Tashi delek,

Here i do not agree, because Uddiyana is not the only place/location/ country, where Dzogchen did originate.
This is a very one sided private opinion and should also be valued like that dear Sonam.

So for Indian Dzogchen Indian terms
So for "Tibetan Dzogchen " Tibetan words.

For mixed up Dzogchen as well Tibetan as Sanskrit?


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Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:48 am

What I am saying is that in the long run it doen't matter which language is used, what matters is that people understand and this understanding becomes one of the causes for their realisation. The state of Dzogchen does not have any specific national or ethnic characteristics. Texts are essentially useless if one does not also have a teacher, regardless of how (or into what language) they are translated.
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:12 am

gregkavarnos wrote:What I am saying is that in the long run it doen't matter which language is used, what matters is that people understand and this understanding becomes one of the causes for their realisation. The state of Dzogchen does not have any specific national or ethnic characteristics. Texts are essentially useless if one does not also have a teacher, regardless of how (or into what language) they are translated.
:namaste:



Tashi delek,

Ok understanding is important but the correct used language is here of the utmost importance.
That is the core, the right used translations in the native / maternal language of the student.

The problem is that certain Dhamma/Dharma is exported to the west and that English was in those days the exchange between cultures / countries. If this would be the best resolution, that is what we can see already here and now.

But the Dharma was always translated to the country where it was proclaimed: Korea, Japan, western world = English.

- But took this place without making translation mistakes / errors?
- We are all humans and who is here without a mistake?


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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:50 am

Sönam wrote:In the case of Dzogchen terms, they originated from Oddiyana, not India ... Vimalamitra and other pandits went to see Garab Dorje from Nalanda. So is it not better to use Tibetan words?

Sönam



Well, no, since in the titles of the seventeen man ngag sde tantras we find that rigpa is the translation for vidyā, just as byang chub sems is the translation for bodhicitta in the titles of sems sde tantras.

Further, Oddiyāna language is not a distant cousin to Sanskrit, quite the opposite, in Oddiyāna as well, Sanskrit was the language of scholars. Oddiyāna language is a kind of dialect of the Indic languge spoken in the that region.

Large numbers of tantras originating in India are not in Sanskrit, properly speaking, but have sections which are in Apabrahmsa, which is a kind of dialect.
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:58 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Yes if we tae the advice from Lopon Tenzin Namdak serious and take Tibetan language for Tibetan Dzogchen.

KY


But of course, in practice, also Bonpos use the terms dharmakāya for bon sku, etc. Bon = Chos, Chos = Dharma, Dharma = Bon.

And there is no "Tibetan Dzogchen" per se. All Dzogchen teachings come from lands other than Tibet. Including Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud. Taphihritsa is not a Tibetan name.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:06 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Sönam wrote:In the case of Dzogchen terms, they originated from Oddiyana, not India ... Vimalamitra and other pandits went to see Garab Dorje from Nalanda. So is it not better to use Tibetan words?

Sönam



Well, no, since in the titles of the seventeen man ngag sde tantras we find that rigpa is the translation for vidyā, just as byang chub sems is the translation for bodhicitta in the titles of sems sde tantras.

Further, Oddiyāna language is not a distant cousin to Sanskrit, quite the opposite, in Oddiyāna as well, Sanskrit was the language of scholars. Oddiyāna language is a kind of dialect of the Indic languge spoken in the that region.

Large numbers of tantras originating in India are not in Sanskrit, properly speaking, but have sections which are in Apabrahmsa, which is a kind of dialect.



Tashi delek,

- Are these Tantras who are written in Apabrahmsa of Vedic origin?
- Mention please some of those Apabrahmsa Tantras and the author.

Thanks at beforehand :)

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IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:21 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:- Are these Tantras who are written in Apabrahmsa of Vedic origin?
- Mention please some of those Apabrahmsa Tantras and the author.
KY[/color]


Large sections of Buddhist sutras and Tantras, such as Hevajra, are in a kind of mixed Sanskrit and Apabhramsa.

No Vedic text is in anything other than Sanskrit. Vedic = Vedic Sanskrit.

Buddhist mahayāna sutras of the classical period also show plenty of evidence of being adapted from local dialects and being rewritten or worked out of Indic dialects into a more formal Sanskrit.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:35 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:- Are these Tantras who are written in Apabrahmsa of Vedic origin?
- Mention please some of those Apabrahmsa Tantras and the author.
KY[/color]


Large sections of Buddhist sutras and Tantras, such as Hevajra, are in a kind of mixed Sanskrit and Apabhramsa.

No Vedic text is in anything other than Sanskrit. Vedic = Vedic Sanskrit.

Buddhist mahayāna sutras of the classical period also show plenty of evidence of being adapted from local dialects and being rewritten or worked out of Indic dialects into a more formal Sanskrit.



Tashi delek,

Thanks for the replies.

- Would be the books from the Hara Krishna written in Vedic or Sanskrit or a mix of both?
- What is then the difference between Vedic Sanskrit and Sanskrit ?
- What is formal Sanskrit?

So when io understood it well then is there a great difference between Sanskrit and Sanskrit so are the related translations.
Very difficult to get insight into the right translations here due to the many Sanskrit languages.

In case of Indian Dzogchen, understandable that you do prefer Sanskrit instead of Tibetan, because of the exact used Sanskrit terms.


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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
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HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Pero » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:58 pm

It seems to me that the best language to translate into is the one others can understand. If someone doesn't understand English, the English translation (no matter how suitable English is for translations) is as useful as trash to that person.

As for rig pa.

Adamantine wrote:Knowledge has a connotation of the conceptual, or merely factual. This is most likely due to it's common usage, but it still sticks. I think because of this it is a bit tainted for use as a translation for Rigpa.

You know, even in Tibetan, rig pa doesn't always mean Rigpa in Dzogchen sense. It actually can mean intellectual knowledge and intelligence as well. So if you think like that, it is tainted from the start ha ha ha. :smile:
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:16 pm

Pero wrote:It seems to me that the best language to translate into is the one others can understand. If someone doesn't understand English, the English translation (no matter how suitable English is for translations) is as useful as trash to that person.

As for rig pa.

Adamantine wrote:Knowledge has a connotation of the conceptual, or merely factual. This is most likely due to it's common usage, but it still sticks. I think because of this it is a bit tainted for use as a translation for Rigpa.

You know, even in Tibetan, rig pa doesn't always mean Rigpa in Dzogchen sense. It actually can mean intellectual knowledge and intelligence as well. So if you think like that, it is tainted from the start ha ha ha. :smile:


Tashi delek,

There is nothing wrong with to start tainted. With what else to start and indeed this kind of knowledge is also Rigpa and that is within Dzogchen lineages accepted. Thenn Rigpa as realizing emptiness is one and the awareness of dissolving or self-liberating.

That is how one can have an interpretation but i understood that this is according my Dzogchen Lineage and everybody here aboard does so, isn' t it?

Further do we have like discussed earlier no standard terms regarding Dzogchen,. due to differences because of the different Dzogchenn lineages.

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby muni » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:24 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:[,

- What/who is/are the wolf (ves)
- Who is what who liberates the wolf ?

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color]


Wolf stand for mind clinging, clinging to assertions, ideations, to tool, to apprehended dharmas and so waste opportunity. Not good. Liberating teaching = unapprehended not cultivated costructed dharma.

In the rosary of my many lifetimes i had many nationalities. In the rosary of my many lifetimes i spoke many languages.

In the rosary of my many dreams it all happen.

:namaste:
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