Mind/Rigpa and body relation

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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:11 pm

The problem with French and German is that the French and the Germans use it! :tongue:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sönam » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:30 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:The problem with French and German is that the French and the Germans use it! :tongue:


I may smile with, but I do not understand the overall sense hided under the words ... maybe because of the English limitations :tongue:

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Dronma » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:50 pm

Sönam wrote:
Namdrol wrote:... since English is now the international language of advanced scholarship, this proves that English is the best language to translation Dharma texts into, all thanks to the British Empire, Brittania Rule the Waves. ;-)


That's an easy short-cut ... I have the feeling that French would have been a better choice for the dharma, because of the multiplicity of his diversified origins, including Greek, Latin but old French and many other languages too, and a grammatical ability to put subject/object/verb and other in any position, it always works. But as business rules the world, english is now preponderant :popcorn:

Sönam


Well, boys, please relax! Greek is the ideal language for translating Dharma!!!! :D
Since:
1) The English language, which is an amalgamation of several languages, has borrowed
generously from the Greek language. In fact, 24.6 % of the English language has
been borrowed from the Greek, and another 24.8 % has been borrowed from Latin.
Of course, Latin has borrowed greatly from the Greek.
2) Greeks recognized Buddhism more than 2000 years ago.
Have a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism
There are many sources about this, so please search for: greco-buddhism, greek-buddhism, Graeco-buddhism, king Ashoka, Indo-Greek kingdom, Milinda Pañha, Menander, Hellenistic Age etc.
3) There is an ancient text which describes the meeting of the 2 civilizations:
http://www.scribd.com/jan_benda/d/49185494-Debate-of-King-Milinda
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/milinda.pdf
4)Finally, I can read this ancient inscription which is in Greek and Aramaic, and it is one of the first written evidences of Greek-Buddhism (found in Kandahar, c. 250 BC). Can you? ;)

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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Dronma » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:09 pm

Moreover, the first anthropomorphic representations of the Buddha himself are often considered a result of the Greco-Buddhist interaction. Before this innovation, Buddhist art was "aniconic": the Buddha was only represented through his symbols (an empty throne, the Bodhi tree, the Buddha's footprints, the Dharma wheel).
This reluctance towards anthropomorphic representations of the Buddha, and the sophisticated development of aniconic symbols to avoid it (even in narrative scenes where other human figures would appear), seem to be connected to one of the Buddha’s sayings, reported in the Digha Nikaya, that discouraged representations of himself after the extinction of his body.
Probably not feeling bound by these restrictions, and because of "their cult of form", the Greeks were the first to attempt a sculptural representation of the Buddha.

The Buddha, in Greco-Buddhist style, 1st-2nd century CE, Gandhara (Modern eastern Afghanistan). (Standing Buddha (Tokyo National Museum)).


Image

Herculean depiction of Vajrapani (right), as the protector of the Buddha, 2nd century CE Gandhara, British Museum.

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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sally Gross » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:03 am

Dronma wrote:
4)Finally, I can read this ancient inscription which is in Greek and Aramaic, and it is one of the first written evidences of Greek-Buddhism (found in Kandahar, c. 250 BC). Can you? ;)

Image


I know that this is somewhat off-topic, but is there a printed or hand-written rendition of the transcription in the original scripts? The Aramaic is presumably Achaemenid Aramaic, but I'm not familiar with the specific script though it is clearly related to scripts I do know.

I've just realised that this is in fact the Asokan inscription which was preserved in Kandahar, and which has apparently disappeared. The Wiki link used Hebrew letters to transcribe the Aramaic, but I'd be interested in seeing a transcription into the script which is actually used.

Greek would be a good language for translations, as would Syriac (largely because it borrows philosophical concepts and sometimes terms from Greek). The trouble is that comparatively few people read Greek nowadays, and several orders of magnitude less read Syriac. Ideally, Sanskrit, or Pali or one of the other Sanskrit-related Prakrits would do best of all from the point-of-view of accurate translation of key concepts, given that so much of the Tibetan literature draws on a stock of concepts originally found in Sanskrit; but this hardly helps most of us because few of us know Sanskrit, Pali or cognate languages. That being the case, English probably yields the widest readership and serves the purpose best in practical terms, something for which I, as someone whose first language is English, am grateful. A century or two down the line, who knows which languages might be on the rise and may, pragmatically, be a better vehicle for propagation of this literature than English at that time? :reading:

I found a table of scripts on Wiki, in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_alphabet. The Aramaic script looked familiar to me because it seems clear that the Hebrew script in the table -- what the Rabbis call "ktav kasdi", "Chaldaean script", which came to be used for Hbrew after the Babylonian exile and which replaced the Paeo-Hebrew script (basically Phoenician/Canaanite) which had been used before then -- is based upon the script used for Achaemenid Aramaic or is cognate to it. The table reveals something I had not realised: that Brahmi script (also used in Asokan rock-inscriptions in north-central India) is also derived from Phoenician.

Anyway, :focus: -- apologies for the digressions.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:05 am

Sally Gross wrote:...A century or two down the line, who knows which languages might be on the rise and may, pragmatically, be a better vehicle for propagation of this literature than English at that time?
Mandarin Chinese. It's already in use by over 20% of the worlds population.
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby muni » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:06 am

Transmission is from essence-nature, not from texts/books.

The word rigpa itself, is not a must at all, since it is not dependent on the right word we understand. On top there are many many dialects in Tibet. Most people could/cannot read at all, but understanding was!
A saying: "We can know a thousand things which forms samsaric anchor, or know one thing and be free".

Dzogchen is "talking" from essence, answers are coming from essence. Whether there is respect for this or not.

Adventitious show in open air: mind-body - rigpa.



master-student = Dzogchen. There are many dharmas, for all of us.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sally Gross » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:35 am

Muni, you are right, of-course; but given that some Dzogchen literature is published -- and it is helpful to people on the path during the baby-step phase I am in at present, and probably a good way beyond that -- it makes sense to ask what languages and other media apart from direct transmission and the face-to-face instructions of one's Guru articulate that to which one has been introduced and what has been transmitted to one best. Speaking as someone who received direct introduction and a whole raft of tridlungs from Rinpoche recently by way of the webcasts, I can testify that I would be hopelessly lost and a great deal more overwhelmed than I am without publications from SSI in particular to flesh things out and to help me to recognise the experience so that it can be integrated. Given the circumstances in which we live, books of various kinds are of great help.

Talking of reading as a way to work through that to which we have been introduced directly and certain of the transmissions, a thread on this very forum drew my attention to a set of four pocket-sized volumes published in Nepal, The Healthy Mind Interviews edited by Henry Miles Vyner MD, a practitioner of Dzogchen. On the basis of the recommendation in the thread, I ordered the four volumes, recently received three of them, and have read through the first of them, a set of interviews with Khenpo Nyima Wangyal, a Bonpo Master of Dzogchen. They are available through Wisdom Books and, having been printed in Nepal, are inexpensive and (considerations of price aside) are enormously good value judging by the first volume. Their content is decidedly on-topic in relation to this thread, and what I read was redolent of direct experience rather than intellectual scholarship.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:41 am

muni wrote:Transmission is from essence-nature, not from texts/books.

master-student = Dzogchen. There are many dharmas, for all of us.



Tashi delek,

- Oral traditions "don' t have text books" like in the Bon ZZNG / Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud. Or their transmissions are done generaL oral.
- Master - students = Guru Yoga and not everybody is fit for Dzogchen seen the karmic level of understanding.


Mutsog Marro
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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:52 am

Sally Gross wrote:Muni, you are right, of-course; but given that some Dzogchen literature is published -- and it is helpful to people on the path during the baby-step phase I am in at present, and probably a good way beyond that -- it makes sense to ask what languages and other media apart from direct transmission and the face-to-face instructions of one's Guru articulate that to which one has been introduced and what has been transmitted to one best. Speaking as someone who received direct introduction and a whole raft of tridlungs from Rinpoche recently by way of the webcasts, I can testify that I would be hopelessly lost and a great deal more overwhelmed than I am without publications from SSI in particular to flesh things out and to help me to recognise the experience so that it can be integrated. Given the circumstances in which we live, books of various kinds are of great help.

Direct introduction in the Natural State and Guru Yoga are of indespensible help regarding the practice of Dzogchen.

Talking of reading as a way to work through that to which we have been introduced directly and certain of the transmissions, a thread on this very forum drew my attention to a set of four pocket-sized volumes published in Nepal, The Healthy Mind Interviews edited by Henry Miles Vyner MD, a practitioner of Dzogchen. On the basis of the recommendation in the thread, I ordered the four volumes, recently received three of them, and have read through the first of them, a set of interviews with Khenpo Nyima Wangyal, a Bonpo Master of Dzogchen. They are available through Wisdom Books and, having been printed in Nepal, are inexpensive and (considerations of price aside) are enormously good value judging by the first volume. Their content is decidedly on-topic in relation to this thread, and what I read was redolent of direct experience rather than intellectual scholarship.


These direct experiences are additional to ones basic understandings and practice.

There are sure fore runners here like:

- Introduction in the NS
- Guru Yoga
- Kordo Rushen
- Trekchod
- Thodgal

So without a Dzogchen Master / Rigdzin and Guru Yoga no blessings or realizations possible. so what to do with empty words?


Mutsog Marro
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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:27 pm

muni wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek, :)

- First how is knowledge seen of a State which is without recognizing or is more experienced in the sense of " self-iluminating "?
- So i guess that "knowledge" has the meaning of be aware of that State by study or by realisation of the Natural State which is without "knowledge" of that State.
So Rigpa can/ has also here above mentioned, the meaning of the knowledge which one must have to be able to regognize a certain degree in the Dzogchen Yogas / "meditations".

Further is English sometimes not good enough to make some usefull Dzogchen translations possible.


Best wishes
KY

Tashi Delek!

Awareness with an added word. Like Selfsprung Awareness, Pristine Awareness, 'inner Pure Awareness and Knowledge', and other to express completedness.
Here Sogyal Rinpoche: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa :smile:



Tashi delek,


Here some further Rigpa conjugations to get a broader vision:

Rig - pa - :
rig-pa ngo-sprod - direct introduction to intrinsic Awareness
rig-pa gcer-bu - naked Awareness
rig-pa gcer mthong - seeing with naked Awareness
rig-pa rjen-pa - naked Awareness
rig-pa dbyings kyi sgron-ma - the lamp of the dimension of Awareness
rig-pa tshad pheb kyi snang-ba - the vision of the increasing to the full measure of Awareness
rig-pa 'dzin-pa - vidyadhara, knowledge-holder
rig-pa'i khu-byug - the cockoo of Awareness
rig-pa'i rtsal - the potentiality of Awareness, the creative energy of Awareness
rig-pa'i rtsallhung-ba - fall into the potentiality of Awareness
rig-pa'i ye-shes - the knowledge which is immediate Awareness
rig-pa'i zang-thal - directly penetrating Awareness
rig-pa zang-thal gyi ngang - the state of directly penetrating Awareness
rig-pa rang gnas - self-sustaining immediate Awareness

rang rig - self-awareness; aware of oneself
rang rig-pa - one's own intrinsic Awareness

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7983

What to do with Sogyal Rinpoche's elucidations i mean what to read ?


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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
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HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sally Gross » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:23 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Direct introduction in the Natural State and Guru Yoga are of indespensible help regarding the practice of Dzogchen.


....

So without a Dzogchen Master / Rigdzin and Guru Yoga no blessings or realizations possible. so what to do with empty words?


Mutsog Marro
KY[/quote]

As far as I can make out, I haven't disputed what you say in there regards -- it was certainly not my intention to suggest that what you say is not the case, and I do not believe that what I wrote implies otherwise. What I was trying to say, and evidently not getting across, is that once one has had direct introduction to the natural state from one's Dzogchen Master or Rigdzin and once one begins to practice Guru Yoga, while one is still consolidating, certain books written specifically to guide students -- for example, those written by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and recommended by him as a means to build upon what has been transmitted by way of face-to-face teachings and tridlungs -- are helpful as a supplement. Were such books totally useless as an upaaya, if they are merely empty words which are totally redundant, why have so many Dzogchen Masters produced written works? Forgive me if that is a naive question.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby muni » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:49 pm

Hello Sally, masters can point to books, which are helpful. Nothing wrong with reading books, translations are very appreciate.
But how we approach the texts can be important for our practice.
In another tread in Bon, a picture of H H Dudjom Rinpoche is posted. I think that can be a good example.

There is written "look at this picture, then look at your mind, look at the one who is looking."

There is not written: look at the picture, focus on it, analyse the picture, give opinions... I mean any focus by conceptual mind is hiding unconceptual is there told.

ps Intellectual teachings by a master, is said, not to be the same as direct transmissions into nondual.

:namaste:
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby muni » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:07 pm

In another tread, which is closed, I saw about arrogance and the need to can ask on a forum and so on. So I wrote here a bit adapt to this tread.
Regarding that arrogance of mind, I learned to see that there is no complete awakening without "others". It is by them that we can fully be "enlightened". In short, by arrogance, we block this opportunity.

Just "some two cents". :popcorn:
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sally Gross » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:34 pm

muni wrote:In another tread, which is closed, I saw about arrogance and the need to can ask on a forum and so on. So I wrote here a bit adapt to this tread.
Regarding that arrogance of mind, I learned to see that there is no complete awakening without "others". It is by them that we can fully be "enlightened". In short, by arrogance, we block this opportunity.

Just "some two cents".


I'm not sure that I understand. In saying that 'there is no complete awakening without "others"', I take it that you mean that there is no complete awakening without a teacher, and perhaps without Vajra siblings, that complete awakening cannot be achieved by someone in complete isolation without any relationship to others at crucial stages at least, and without transmission. This is presumably something which is not in dispute. What I'm not clear about is what you mean by "arrogance of mind" in this context. Does this refer to the attitude of someone who believes that he or she can achieve complete awakening completely alone without transmission from a qualified teacher and guidance from anyone else, to someone who believes that information acquired from reading books suffices for the achievement of complete enlightenment (in other words, that books render any connection with a teacher redundant), or does it apply to the attitude of one who believes neither of these things but does feel that the reading of appropriate books, in an appropriate way and spirit, can be helpful, particularly when certain books have been recommended by one's realised teacher? Or does the "arrogance of mind" to which you refer mean something completely different, and if so, what?

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche recommends that those who receive transmissions from him study certain texts to flesh out what he has transmitted, and he has written a prodigious amount of literature specifically for his students specifically to complement oral teachings. I take it that we agree that the reading of books is not a substitute for transmission from teacher to student, and that academic knowledge is no substitute for direct experience. Where is there "arrogance of mind" in this context?

If the contention is that the reading of books is harmful outside the context of direct introduction, oral transmission and understanding that what is being sought transcends the conceptual, I would be inclined to agree in particular contexts. The only way to come to know what coffee tastes like is actually to taste it, to take a flippant example, and no book or conceptual process can teach one what it tastes like. However, there are books about coffee which might lead certain readers to taste some coffee for themselves. Cashing the analogy with reference to Dharma, I'd guess that few Western followers of the Dharma would have come to the Dharma had they not encountered helpful books, and that most Westerners who have found teachers did so because they had done some reading before they encountered their teachers or had embarked upon serious practice. The progression, for not a few Westerners, is from an intellectual interest in the Dharma in consequence of which one reads books, some of which are academic and abstract, to a practical involvement which leads one to seek out a teacher and to practice. In that sense, while books are certainly no substitute for direct teaching and practice leading to direct experience which transcends concepts, they have helped many people, including me, onto the path.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby muni » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:27 pm

Dear,
Only general arrogance and Dzogchen. Dzogchen is rigpa and not mind. "Others are not separate in rigpa (nondual). Me and others are not exactly two separate entities. But you know that, so let me shut up...blabla...

Shantideva for example, who wrote huge works and then said something like: I have not something beneficial to say, but all what I wrote is own practice.

I rejoice for your opportunity and everyone here to can listen to Namkhay Norbu Rinpoche!

Nothing more i can say.
:namaste:
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Adamantine » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:34 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:[color=#0080FF]Tashi delek, :)

Yes the term Rigpa, is a very difficult word to translate, sure when it is related to awareness.
Also is it clear that Rigpa could also be inteligence, that was also one of my earlier suggestion.


In my opinion, translating rigpa as "awareness" is simply wrong. Intelligence is also not good, again IMO.

In this case, knowledge is best. Why? Because rigpa is opposite to ma rig pa. Knowledge is the opposite of ignorance.

N


Knowledge has a connotation of the conceptual, or merely factual. This is most likely due to it's common usage, but it still sticks. I think because of this it is a bit tainted for use as a translation for Rigpa.

Also, I would propose that the timeless quality of Rigpa would be better served by the term "knowing" than "knowledge", as knowledge also has a connotation of a static quality of an object or subject known by the mind. Maybe a conditional of "non-conceptual knowing" would be better, -- but then, look at the definition of intuition from Merriam Webster : direct perception of truth, fact, etc., independent of any reasoning process; immediate apprehension. This does seem to fit better, however it has it's own connotations due to common usage that could cause other misunderstandings.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:57 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:[color=#0080FF]Tashi delek, :)

Yes the term Rigpa, is a very difficult word to translate, sure when it is related to awareness.
Also is it clear that Rigpa could also be inteligence, that was also one of my earlier suggestion.


In my opinion, translating rigpa as "awareness" is simply wrong. Intelligence is also not good, again IMO.

In this case, knowledge is best. Why? Because rigpa is opposite to ma rig pa. Knowledge is the opposite of ignorance.

N


Knowledge has a connotation of the conceptual, or merely factual. This is most likely due to it's common usage, but it still sticks. I think because of this it is a bit tainted for use as a translation for Rigpa.

Also, I would propose that the timeless quality of Rigpa would be better served by the term "knowing" than "knowledge", as knowledge also has a connotation of a static quality of an object or subject known by the mind. Maybe a conditional of "non-conceptual knowing" would be better, -- but then, look at the definition of intuition from Merriam Webster : direct perception of truth, fact, etc., independent of any reasoning process; immediate apprehension. This does seem to fit better, however it has it's own connotations due to common usage that could cause other misunderstandings.


That is why I just use vidyā in the same way that we use dharmakāya, etc.
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http://atikosha.org
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sönam » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:10 pm

Namdrol wrote:That is why I just use vidyā in the same way that we use dharmakāya, etc.


If you use vidyā, why can't we simply use rigpa then, and forget all that discussion? ... anyway rigpa/vidyā has only an interest for those who know about.

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:12 pm

Sönam wrote:
Namdrol wrote:That is why I just use vidyā in the same way that we use dharmakāya, etc.


If you use vidyā, why can't we simply use rigpa then, and forget all that discussion? ... anyway rigpa/vidyā has only an interest for those who know about.

Sönam


One can, but in my translations, when I must use a dharma term, I prefer the Sanskrit original to the Tibetan if possible.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

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