Understanding of the Natural State

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Understanding of the Natural State

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:33 am

Tashi delek,

Here a nice dialogue between H.E. Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche and one of his students.
Remarkable aspects are the used Self-Awareness and the Knowing aspect.

Mutsog Marro
KY


Question:
I understand very well what you say about needing to understand the presence of all the qualities of Nature in order to understand the real Dzogchen View, and I think I can somehow feel how that works,but I would still like to better understand how it is that by reflecting on and knowing the qualities of the Natural State after the session, in the next session those qualities are more fully expressed. What is the link? When I am studying Dzogchen I am doing something with my mind so I don't understand how that can help my understanding of the Natural State.


H.E. Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche:

First of all, as far as you have practiced with the Natural State you have to be spontaneously familiar with 'by itself. 'By itself means that Nature itself knows itself and that is called Self-Awareness. As far as you practice and become stable and clear, visions appear spontaneously from time to time. When you are very stable in the Natural State and visions are coming clearly, at that time it is called Empty Form or Knowledge - whatever you say, everything is known in that way. Otherwise it is not comparable with our normal way of knowing this or that; it is not comparable. You yourself are very stable in the Natural State and the visions are all coming, going, but you don't check anything, you don't grasp anything; leave everything as it is. That means you know very well that everything is Empty Form.

Then from time to time (gradually), more and more visions will come. There are 4 stages and according to our Dzogchen there are 5 stages for the View and they don't all appear at once; it depends on your motivation, how far it is coming up. According to that, visions develop from time to time, but at any time, don't try to judge, see or say anything; itself comes, it is self-aware, it self-liberates. When visions come they are not always fixed like a painting, they are all coming and going. How fast they come and go depends on the circumstances of your meditation. Or they show you how far (your meditation has- developed).
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby Paul » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:32 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:H.E. Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche:

First of all, as far as you have practiced with the Natural State you have to be spontaneously familiar with 'by itself. 'By itself means that Nature itself knows itself and that is called Self-Awareness. As far as you practice and become stable and clear, visions appear spontaneously from time to time. When you are very stable in the Natural State and visions are coming clearly, at that time it is called Empty Form or Knowledge - whatever you say, everything is known in that way. Otherwise it is not comparable with our normal way of knowing this or that; it is not comparable. You yourself are very stable in the Natural State and the visions are all coming, going, but you don't check anything, you don't grasp anything; leave everything as it is. That means you know very well that everything is Empty Form.

Then from time to time (gradually), more and more visions will come. There are 4 stages and according to our Dzogchen there are 5 stages for the View and they don't all appear at once; it depends on your motivation, how far it is coming up. According to that, visions develop from time to time, but at any time, don't try to judge, see or say anything; itself comes, it is self-aware, it self-liberates. When visions come they are not always fixed like a painting, they are all coming and going. How fast they come and go depends on the circumstances of your meditation. Or they show you how far (your meditation has- developed).[/color]


Thanks for posting this - it;s an interesting question and an interesting answer. Is Lopon describing togal type visions here (ie not karmic visions)? It's my understanding that they can begin to manifest for someone practicing only trekcho once their practice starts to gain strength - they are expression rigpa starting to appear. Is this correct?
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:19 pm

Paul wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:H.E. Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche:

First of all, as far as you have practiced with the Natural State you have to be spontaneously familiar with 'by itself. 'By itself means that Nature itself knows itself and that is called Self-Awareness. As far as you practice and become stable and clear, visions appear spontaneously from time to time. When you are very stable in the Natural State and visions are coming clearly, at that time it is called Empty Form or Knowledge - whatever you say, everything is known in that way. Otherwise it is not comparable with our normal way of knowing this or that; it is not comparable. You yourself are very stable in the Natural State and the visions are all coming, going, but you don't check anything, you don't grasp anything; leave everything as it is. That means you know very well that everything is Empty Form.

Then from time to time (gradually), more and more visions will come. There are 4 stages and according to our Dzogchen there are 5 stages for the View and they don't all appear at once; it depends on your motivation, how far it is coming up. According to that, visions develop from time to time, but at any time, don't try to judge, see or say anything; itself comes, it is self-aware, it self-liberates. When visions come they are not always fixed like a painting, they are all coming and going. How fast they come and go depends on the circumstances of your meditation. Or they show you how far (your meditation has- developed).[/color]


Thanks for posting this - it;s an interesting question and an interesting answer. Is Lopon describing togal type visions here (ie not karmic visions)? It's my understanding that they can begin to manifest for someone practicing only trekcho once their practice starts to gain strength - they are expression rigpa starting to appear. Is this correct?


Tashi delek,

Thanks for your post.

Lopon lak is describing here the visions belonging to Thodgal.
Trekchod and Thodgal are teached as inseparable by Lopon La, so is the Natural State.

If one is aware about these visions without the knowing of a subject / object then one is clear abiding in the awareness of the Natural State.


Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby Paul » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:25 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,

Thanks for your post.

Lopon lak is describing here the visions belonging to Thodgal.
Trekchod and Thodgal are teached as inseparable by Lopon La, so is the Natural State.

If one is aware about these visions without the knowing of a subject / object then one is clear abiding in the awareness of the Natural State.


Mutsog Marro
KY


Tony Duff has in several places talked about nature of mind having what could be described as a "noisiness" to it (not an audible noise) due to rigpa's expressive abilities. It's one of the most fascinating elements of Dzogchen I've come across. The Loppon's description of practice seems to tie in well with that.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby alpha » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:25 am

Paul wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,

Thanks for your post.

Lopon lak is describing here the visions belonging to Thodgal.
Trekchod and Thodgal are teached as inseparable by Lopon La, so is the Natural State.

If one is aware about these visions without the knowing of a subject / object then one is clear abiding in the awareness of the Natural State.


Mutsog Marro
KY


Tony Duff has in several places talked about nature of mind having what could be described as a "noisiness" to it (not an audible noise) due to rigpa's expressive abilities. It's one of the most fascinating elements of Dzogchen I've come across. The Loppon's description of practice seems to tie in well with that.



Can this "noisiness" be the vibrancy or intensity of rigpa?
Or is this mainly referring to arising of pure visions once rigpa has been strengthened an stabilized ?
AOM
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby muni » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:58 am

I don't understand.

Research ( fishing mind) in phenomena and i never ever realize what is not created, cannot understand the meaning of the teaching. creation what is grasping to created expressions about noncreated.

Thinking mind remains trained like no any atlete ever can and fully convinced of what is not tangible must be possible to understand by tangible thoughts. Human habits!

Maybe investigation of "mind", not phenomena? :shrug:

Thank you. :namaste:
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby alpha » Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:46 am

muni wrote:I don't understand.

Research ( fishing mind) in phenomena and i never ever realize what is not created, cannot understand the meaning of the teaching. creation what is grasping to created expressions about noncreated.

Thinking mind remains trained like no any atlete ever can and fully convinced of what is not tangible must be possible to understand by tangible thoughts. Human habits!

Maybe investigation of "mind", not phenomena? :shrug:

Thank you. :namaste:


i don't understand either.
i actually never understand.
AOM
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:14 am

alpha wrote:
Paul wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,

Thanks for your post.

Lopon lak is describing here the visions belonging to Thodgal.
Trekchod and Thodgal are teached as inseparable by Lopon La, so is the Natural State.

If one is aware about these visions without the knowing of a subject / object then one is clear abiding in the awareness of the Natural State.


Mutsog Marro
KY


Tony Duff has in several places talked about nature of mind having what could be described as a "noisiness" to it (not an audible noise) due to rigpa's expressive abilities. It's one of the most fascinating elements of Dzogchen I've come across. The Loppon's description of practice seems to tie in well with that.



Can this "noisiness" be the vibrancy or intensity of rigpa?
Or is this mainly referring to arising of pure visions once rigpa has been strengthened an stabilized ?



Tashi delek,

Thanks for your post.
This activity comes from the mother or Ma / gzhi. About these one is aware in the Natural State of self - awareness.
The son / bu, is here that self-awareness. If the son meets the mother "one" is back home.

It is like Lopon lak explains:
"First of all, as far as you have practiced with the Natural State you have to be spontaneously familiar with 'by itself. 'By itself means that Nature itself knows itself and that is called Self-Awareness".

To be in the Natural State = to experience or be aware of these creations of Lights, sounds and rays.
Noisiness would mean here the inner sounds as well the outer sounds.

The outer things are reflected on the crystal, without disturbing the crystal.
The inner things are emanating from the potential of the crystal to create.

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby muni » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:11 pm

alpha wrote:[
i don't understand either.
i actually never understand.


:tongue:

yes, I is born from what never is been born, others are born from that...
Following thoughts,
they become mine,
caught in their flow
"i" am their fool
"i" am their slave
from "I" others are born
"i" am suffering.


aware of thinking mind
watching dissolving passage
no way to keep"i".
...smoke in sky!

:namaste:
Last edited by muni on Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:17 pm

muni wrote:
alpha wrote:[
i don't understand either.
i actually never understand.


:tongue:

yes, I is born from what never is been born, others are born from that...
Following thoughts,
they become mine,
caught in their flow
"i" am their fool
"i" am their slave
from "I" others are born
"i" am suffering.


aware of thinking mind
watching thinking passage
no way to keep"i".
...smoke in sky!

:namaste:



Tashi delek,

Mind of ego?
Remedie
Egoless Mind.

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby alpha » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:17 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:To be in the Natural State = to experience or be aware of these creations of Lights, sounds and rays.
Noisiness would mean here the inner sounds as well the outer sounds.

The outer things are reflected on the crystal, without disturbing the crystal.
The inner things are emanating from the potential of the crystal to create.

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color]


How can anything be thought of being internal or external while in rigpa?
My understanding is that while in rigpa the apperarances cannot be thought of being separate from knowing or clarity.
AOM
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:20 pm

alpha wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:To be in the Natural State = to experience or be aware of these creations of Lights, sounds and rays.
Noisiness would mean here the inner sounds as well the outer sounds.

The outer things are reflected on the crystal, without disturbing the crystal.
The inner things are emanating from the potential of the crystal to create.

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color]


How can anything be thought of being internal or external while in rigpa?
My understanding is that while in rigpa the apperarances cannot be thought of being separate from knowing or clarity.


Rig pa means knowing appearances as your own state. Ma rig is ignorance of this fact. But rig pa is not a type of solipsism.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby alpha » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:37 pm

Namdrol wrote:
alpha wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:To be in the Natural State = to experience or be aware of these creations of Lights, sounds and rays.
Noisiness would mean here the inner sounds as well the outer sounds.

The outer things are reflected on the crystal, without disturbing the crystal.
The inner things are emanating from the potential of the crystal to create.

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color]


How can anything be thought of being internal or external while in rigpa?
My understanding is that while in rigpa the apperarances cannot be thought of being separate from knowing or clarity.


Rig pa means knowing appearances as your own state. Ma rig is ignorance of this fact. But rig pa is not a type of solipsism.


Hi Namdrol,
This is what is being said in Golden letters in the commentary on the first statement
"Whatever may arise ,appearing as external phenomena to the individual,is merely one's own internal state of existence manifesting externally ,that is to say ,it is merely the potentiality or creative energy of awareness becoming visible to the individual".

Is this what you are saying?
AOM
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:54 pm

alpha wrote:This is what is being said in Golden letters in the commentary on the first statement
"Whatever may arise ,appearing as external phenomena to the individual,is merely one's own internal state of existence manifesting externally ,that is to say ,it is merely the potentiality or creative energy of awareness becoming visible to the individual".

Is this what you are saying?


"Oneself encountering oneself (For example, just as one encounters people of the same language in some country of a different language, one is recognized, when anger is recognized, it is liberated) is the self-sufficient power (Therefore, like is likewise liberated by like, there is no other antidote) of whatever appears being oneself (A phenomena that is otherwise cannot be found elsewhere)."

This is my rendering of the same passage, not having examined Reynold's version. It sticks very closely to the Tibetan, and has the added advantage of including the interlinear footnotes.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby alpha » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:12 pm

Namdrol wrote:
alpha wrote:This is what is being said in Golden letters in the commentary on the first statement
"Whatever may arise ,appearing as external phenomena to the individual,is merely one's own internal state of existence manifesting externally ,that is to say ,it is merely the potentiality or creative energy of awareness becoming visible to the individual".

Is this what you are saying?


"Oneself encountering oneself (For example, just as one encounters people of the same language in some country of a different language, one is recognized, when anger is recognized, it is liberated) is the self-sufficient power (Therefore, like is likewise liberated by like, there is no other antidote) of whatever appears being oneself (A phenomena that is otherwise cannot be found elsewhere)."

This is my rendering of the same passage, not having examined Reynold's version. It sticks very closely to the Tibetan, and has the added advantage of including the interlinear footnotes.

N



"Oneself encountering oneself" or "like is likewise liberated by like" can be seen only if one has familiarity whit the limitless or boundless aspect of mind and its knowing quality.
The knowing then can turn on itself and the display is recognized as oneself.
AOM
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:23 pm

alpha wrote:
"Oneself encountering oneself" or "like is likewise liberated by like" can be seen only if one has familiarity whit the limitless or boundless aspect of mind and its knowing quality.
The knowing then can turn on itself and the display is recognized as oneself.


This is the whole point that noone gets e.g. knowing does not need to turn in on itself. This is a hangover from the idea of svasaṃvedana (rang rig) used in Buddhist logic. That step of knowing turning in on itself is not needed, in fact, it is a deviation.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby alpha » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:33 pm

Namdrol wrote:
alpha wrote:
"Oneself encountering oneself" or "like is likewise liberated by like" can be seen only if one has familiarity whit the limitless or boundless aspect of mind and its knowing quality.
The knowing then can turn on itself and the display is recognized as oneself.


This is the whole point that noone gets e.g. knowing does not need to turn in on itself. This is a hangover from the idea of svasaṃvedana (rang rig) used in Buddhist logic. That step of knowing turning in on itself is not needed, in fact, it is a deviation.


I understand.In fact this can lead to a very strong fixation on an abiding background which is empty and which can be very difficult to release.
As far as i understand the safest way is to release everything and the knowledge will arise by itself.
But you have to agree that this is how lots of teachers instruct their students by giving them directions of how the knowledge can turn on itself.
AOM
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:42 pm

alpha wrote:But you have to agree that this is how lots of teachers instruct their students by giving them directions of how the knowledge can turn on itself.


I have never heard my teachers (ChNN, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa) say anything like this ever.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby trevor » Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:05 pm

Namdrol wrote:
alpha wrote:But you have to agree that this is how lots of teachers instruct their students by giving them directions of how the knowledge can turn on itself.


I have never heard my teachers (ChNN, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa) say anything like this ever.

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Re: Understanding of the Natural State

Postby muni » Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:33 pm

trevor wrote:[
I have never heard my teachers (ChNN, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa) say anything like this ever.

Image[/quote]

Thank you Trevor. :namaste:
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