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What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46? - Dhamma Wheel

What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
starter
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What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46?

Postby starter » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:08 am

Hi friend,

Thanks for all your input to my previous posts. I'm studying AN 7.46, and wonder which fruit status that "the fruit of development" mentioned in the Sutta means? It seems to mean arahatship, since stream winners and once-returners still have sensual desire, and non-returners still have sloth/torpor and conceit (?). Or should stream winners succeed in suppressing their sensual desire, sloth/torpor and conceit to such a degree that none of the below-mentioned should occur?

AN 7.46:

"If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of the unattractive, his mind inclines to the completion of the sexual act, or if non-loathing takes a stance, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of the unattractive; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of development.' In that way he is alert there. ...

If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of death, his mind inclines to fervor for life, or if non-loathing takes a stance, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of death; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of development.' In that way he is alert there. In that way he is alert there. ...

If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of loathsomeness in food, his mind inclines to craving for flavors, or if non-loathing takes a stance, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of loathsomeness in food; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of development.' In that way he is alert there. ...

If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of distaste for every world, his mind inclines to worldly embellishments, or if non-loathing takes a stance, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of distaste for every world; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of development.' In that way he is alert there. ...

If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of inconstancy, his mind inclines to gains, offerings, & fame, or if non-loathing takes a stance, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of inconstancy; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of development.' In that way he is alert there. ...

If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of stress in what is inconstant, a fierce perception of danger & fear is not established in him toward idleness, indolence, laziness, heedlessness, lack of commitment, & lack of reflection, as if toward a murderer with an upraised sword, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of stress in what is inconstant; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of development.' In that way he is alert there. ...

If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of not-self in what is stressful, his heart is not devoid of I-making & my-making with regard to this conscious body and externally with regard to all themes, has not transcended pride, is not at peace, and is not well-released, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of not-self in what is stressful; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of development.' In that way he is alert there. ..."

Metta,

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Individual
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Re: What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46?

Postby Individual » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:57 am

The DN is often considered unreliable...

But perhaps it's related to the fruits of the contemplative life in the samannaphala sutta? :)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The "fruit of development," could be thought of as the actual benefit from practice rather than the possibly mistaken perception of benefit. So, the actual overcoming of hindrances, the actual path of stream-entry, etc.. When these things are actually attained (as fruits of mental development) and not simply mistaken self-perceptions. :)
The best things in life aren't things.


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bodom
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Re: What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46?

Postby bodom » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:50 am

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

Individual
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Re: What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46?

Postby Individual » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:51 am

The best things in life aren't things.


Individual
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Re: What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46?

Postby Individual » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:53 am

"Do you insult my Nikaya?!" :jedi:

:rofl:

I only said what I did above, because I didn't want to clarify something in the AN with something in the DN. It seems like some people might think it's a backwards form of analysis. :)
The best things in life aren't things.


rowyourboat
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Re: What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:41 am

Hi Starter

You will find that different people have different cravings and aversions. Someone may have a craving for 3D movies, which another person may not have at all. The non-returner stage has nothing to do with it. It is possible to not have certain defilements before the corresponding stage. However defilements and fetters (samyojana) are different. Removing of a fetter requires removing of deeply hidden tendencies to a defilement (anusaya). It is possible to suppress most defilements through samatha for example. It is said that in formless heavenly realms defilements are suppressed over aeons.

I believe this sutta and other like it (Girimananda sutta for example) are aimed at sekha (trainees) or to put it in another way: stream entrant or higher trainees. This is because contemplation of anatta (as mentioned in these sutas) can only be accurately understood by a stream entrant. Everyone else will have slightly skewed view of this. The Buddha would not have wanted a skewed view being propagated and developed in a trainee.

I hope that is clear.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46?

Postby cooran » Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:12 am

Piya Tan has this detailed translation and study of this sutta.... 13 pages in all.

Scroll down to A 7.46 Satta Sañña Sutta Seven meditations leading to the Deathless.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... taranikaya

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46?

Postby starter » Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:04 am


rowyourboat
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Re: What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46?

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:42 pm

Hi Starter

Stream entry is called the arsing of the 'dhamma eye', understanding of the four noble truths at the 'sacca' (truth) level. This means a stream entrant has a snapshot of the truth. However he has more to do- his thinking patterns have not still changed in line with that truth. So there is more to be done- hence the word 'sekha' trainee is given to stream entrants and above until they reach arahanth level. The sutta you quoted once again I believe is meant for someone who has seen the truth of anatta. Otherwise contemplating everything as anatta would lead to a conflict in the mind of the practitioner, as avijja is not abandoned simply by thinking about the truth, in someone who still clings to that concept of self at an unconscious level.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
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Re: What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:49 pm

Furthemore I would like to say- the total erradication of the five hinderances happen when someone becomes an arahanth. However to begin the process of mental development off, they must be suppressed so that they don't become hindrances to awareness from an early stage.

Hindrances (and defilements) are held back initially by precepts.
Then through samadhi and jhana.
Then through insight.
Then finally through magga-phala moments.

Each of these steps involve holding back, suppressing and finally removing these defilements or hindrances.

Hope that is clear.

with metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

starter
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Re: What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46?

Postby starter » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:13 pm


rowyourboat
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Re: What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:36 pm

Hi Starter,- you are correct. The type of doubt pertaining to dukka and the escape from dukkha is eradicated at the point of reaching stream entry. However the type of doubt like 'Am I doing this meditation correctly' ' did I leave my key at my friends house' 'do I know enough dhamma to start practice' are not eradicated.

The two 'types' of stream entrants are merely the sotapanna-magga- the person on the path to stream entry (from a very specific point from what I understand) and then the sotapanna-phala person is someone who has attained stream entry and is enjoying the benefits ('fruits') of it. Knowing these classifications is interesting, but as they say, the 'proof of the pudding is in the eating'!

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Parth
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Re: What is "the fruit of development" in Sutta AN 7.46?

Postby Parth » Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:05 pm

The two types of sotapanna persons are essentially one since, the 1 st stage and 2nd stage are seperated by only a split of a second or so. And supposedly no sotapanna maggatha person can die without attaining the phala as well. The phala just suceeds the phala just giving enough time for realisation of what has happened.


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