Mind/Rigpa and body relation

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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:30 pm

mzaur wrote:Knowledge sounds so abstract. Like, I have a lot of knowledge about computers. How do I rest in that knowledge?I guess I don't understand what you mean by knowledge. Language is tricky.

To use your example of a job well done. Ok, so I 'know' I did a job well done because I have the thought, 'wow I did a great job' and the feeling of relief, satisfaction, etc.. so there is a thought and a feeling.. and you rest in that? :shrug:


It means you rest in the knowledge you discovered through a direct perception of your own state, your primordial state. One you have this knowledge, that's it. And yes there is relief and satisfaction.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby mzaur » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:59 pm

Thank you for clarifying. So this knowledge is not a thought... it's a non-conceptual knowing. Right? I guess what confused me was that I see knowledge as having thoughts about a certain topic.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Josef » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:01 pm

mzaur wrote:Thank you for clarifying. So this knowledge is not a thought... it's a non-conceptual knowing. Right? I guess what confused me was that I see knowledge as having thoughts about a certain topic.


Its knowledge gained through personal experience.
A popular analogy is chocolate.
You can try to describe its taste all day but until one actually tastes it they wont truly have knowledge of chocolate.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Dronma » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:08 pm

mzaur wrote:Thank you for clarifying. So this knowledge is not a thought... it's a non-conceptual knowing. Right? I guess what confused me was that I see knowledge as having thoughts about a certain topic.


Yes, generally knowledge has the meaning of intellectual activity in many languages.
I would define it more like "recognition of one's primordial state".
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby mzaur » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:21 pm

Nangwa wrote:
mzaur wrote:Thank you for clarifying. So this knowledge is not a thought... it's a non-conceptual knowing. Right? I guess what confused me was that I see knowledge as having thoughts about a certain topic.


Its knowledge gained through personal experience.
A popular analogy is chocolate.
You can try to describe its taste all day but until one actually tastes it they wont truly have knowledge of chocolate.


Ah, that's a great analogy. Thanks



Dronma wrote:
mzaur wrote:Thank you for clarifying. So this knowledge is not a thought... it's a non-conceptual knowing. Right? I guess what confused me was that I see knowledge as having thoughts about a certain topic.


Yes, generally knowledge has the meaning of intellectual activity in many languages.
I would define it more like "recognition of one's primordial state".



:thanks:
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:45 pm

mzaur wrote:Thank you for clarifying. So this knowledge is not a thought... it's a non-conceptual knowing. Right? I guess what confused me was that I see knowledge as having thoughts about a certain topic.


It is direct perception and the knowledge that results from that direct perception.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Dronma » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:52 pm

Sometimes, English scholars are using the Greek term Gnosis for indicating Rigpa in a more fancy way, which is wrong as I have posted in many threads before.
Because gnosis means knowledge. As Greek, I would never say that Rigpa is Gnosis (Γνώσις). But I would say that Rigpa is Anagnorisis (Αναγνώρισις), which includes etymologically the root of the term Gnosis in it, but it is more specific and can be translated in English as Recognition.
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Anders » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:59 pm

mzaur wrote:Knowledge sounds so abstract. Like, I have a lot of knowledge about computers. How do I rest in that knowledge?I guess I don't understand what you mean by knowledge. Language is tricky.

To use your example of a job well done. Ok, so I 'know' I did a job well done because I have the thought, 'wow I did a great job' and the feeling of relief, satisfaction, etc.. so there is a thought and a feeling.. and you rest in that? :shrug:


Perhaps 'knowing' would be a more apt rendering in some cases, to indicate an active state more so than the passive 'knowledge'.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:00 pm

Namdrol wrote:
mzaur wrote:Thank you for clarifying. So this knowledge is not a thought... it's a non-conceptual knowing. Right? I guess what confused me was that I see knowledge as having thoughts about a certain topic.


It is direct perception and the knowledge that results from that direct perception.



Tashi delek,

I guess that the Natural State does not need a result because it is complete. Do we hav e knowledge about this or are we aware of it.
Awareness is also in this case linked to the lights, rays and sounds. I cannot imagine myself that there is knowledge about these, more an awerenes or to be 100% in the Natural State.

Maybe an explanation of direct perception would be usefull...

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Paul » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:11 pm

Anders Honore wrote:
mzaur wrote:Knowledge sounds so abstract. Like, I have a lot of knowledge about computers. How do I rest in that knowledge?I guess I don't understand what you mean by knowledge. Language is tricky.

To use your example of a job well done. Ok, so I 'know' I did a job well done because I have the thought, 'wow I did a great job' and the feeling of relief, satisfaction, etc.. so there is a thought and a feeling.. and you rest in that? :shrug:


Perhaps 'knowing' would be a more apt rendering in some cases, to indicate an active state more so than the passive 'knowledge'.


Yes - I think that's a good point.

I sometimes think of it like directly knowing that the sky is blue by looking up at the sky. Getting distracted from rigpa is looking at something else in a moment of being absent mindedly distracted. The four cog bzhag (or any other instruction) is looking back up and therefore getting back to the directly knowing that the sky is blue.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:14 pm

mzaur wrote:Ah, that's a great analogy. Thanks


Another good analogy is the attempt to describe the color red to someone blind since birth. The knowledge is a direct, innate, first hand apperceiving. Fully experiential. The intellect actually serves as a double edged sword in actualizing the truth rigpa represents, knowing the right balance is key(intellect will point you in the right direction but cannot take you there).
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:37 pm

Dronma wrote:Sometimes, English scholars are using the Greek term Gnosis for indicating Rigpa in a more fancy way, which is wrong as I have posted in many threads before.
Because gnosis means knowledge. As Greek, I would never say that Rigpa is Gnosis (Γνώσις). But I would say that Rigpa is Anagnorisis (Αναγνώρισις), which includes etymologically the root of the term Gnosis in it, but it is more specific and can be translated in English as Recognition.


RIgpa comes from recognition and is based on recogniton.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:45 pm

Namdrol wrote:RIgpa comes from recognition and is based on recogniton.
But surely recognition necessitates a mediation. I mean there has to be something recognised and a recogniser, right? In which case it all goes down the tubes again. I guess we can put it down to the shortcomings of language.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:01 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Namdrol wrote:RIgpa comes from recognition and is based on recogniton.
But surely recognition necessitates a mediation. I mean there has to be something recognised and a recogniser, right? In which case it all goes down the tubes again. I guess we can put it down to the shortcomings of language.
:namaste:


Non-dual in Dzogchen does not discount a subject and an object. It is just that subject and object are non-dual. So when you recognize your primordial state, you are recognizing your own face, as it were.

The term "recognize" is used over and over again in Dzogchen texts. It is an experiential unmediated direct recognition. That recogniton is the basis for your knowledge/knowing/vidyā. Without that recognition, you are in a state of ingorance/āvidya.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby alpha » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:08 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Namdrol wrote:RIgpa comes from recognition and is based on recogniton.
But surely recognition necessitates a mediation. I mean there has to be something recognised and a recogniser, right? In which case it all goes down the tubes again. I guess we can put it down to the shortcomings of language.
:namaste:


its a meeting of two things .when they meet they become one.like water being poured into water or like when you break a vase.When the vase is broken there is a meeting of two things.the inner space and outer space.
this is the dynamic of it.but there is more to it.and they've never been two things. :smile:

you have to go through the motions of understanding/seeing what recognizer/recognized is.
Once you see, then there will be a point where by moving into a particular direction there will be melting.And then you have to stay there. :smile:
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Dronma » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:43 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Dronma wrote:Sometimes, English scholars are using the Greek term Gnosis for indicating Rigpa in a more fancy way, which is wrong as I have posted in many threads before.
Because gnosis means knowledge. As Greek, I would never say that Rigpa is Gnosis (Γνώσις). But I would say that Rigpa is Anagnorisis (Αναγνώρισις), which includes etymologically the root of the term Gnosis in it, but it is more specific and can be translated in English as Recognition.


RIgpa comes from recognition and is based on recogniton.


Yes, exactly. I am using the term Rigpa as it has been transmitted by ChNN.
Rigpa is not the Primordial State itself.
Rigpa is the discovery (or recognition) of the Primordial State.
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:45 am

Namdrol wrote:Non-dual in Dzogchen does not discount a subject and an object. It is just that subject and object are non-dual. So when you recognize your primordial state, you are recognizing your own face, as it were.

The term "recognize" is used over and over again in Dzogchen texts. It is an experiential unmediated direct recognition. That recogniton is the basis for your knowledge/knowing/vidyā. Without that recognition, you are in a state of ingorance/āvidya.
I like this! It seems like a good upaya to circumvent the preponderence of most Buddhist to deny the validity of the relative in preference for an attachment to what they conceive of as "the ultimate". :thumbsup:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby muni » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:04 am

Dronma wrote:
muni wrote:practice, whether on vespa or in rollsroyce.




Hi!
Two shoes with nice sole, are just fitting to 'reach here'.

:smile:
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby White Lotus » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:16 pm

a nice cup of hot chocolate!

my shoes are comfortable too, but difficult to get on.

Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:37 pm

:focus:
Please avoid that sort of cryptic sentences.
They may mean something for you, but they don't help the discussion at all.
Similar posts will be deleted without warning.

Thank you.
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