"Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
"Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
This is an article by a fellow named Bodhipaksa who runs the site http://www.wildmind.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Some people evidently regard Avalokiteshvara, Tara, etc., as actually existing entities, and in fact in Tibetan Buddhism they’ve been coming to blows over whether one of these figures is in fact a force of good or otherwise. But to me they are symbolic archetypes through which experiences of compassion, wisdom, etc., can manifest themselves to us. To give a mild flavor of this, psychology experiments have shown that if someone is asked to think about a professor before they take a quiz, they perform better. The idea of a professor seems to help people get in touch with their own intelligence. Similarly, I believe, the archetypal bodhisattvas and Buddhas can help us get in touch with our own wisdom and compassion.
I’ve had bodhisattvas appear to me in my dreams, but I don’t take that as a “visitation” from a actually existing entity. I’ve even had “communication” from bodhisattvas, but again I take that as being one part of my brain communicating with another through an imagined image and voice.
As Roshi Bernie Glassman says, in Infinite Circle: Teachings in Zen, “Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva is the manifestation, or embodiment, of both prajna wisdom and compassion. Who is this Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva? It is nothing other than us, it is nothing other than who we intrinsically are … We must realize that Avalokitesvara is not separate — it’s us!”
Any thoughts? Do you agree with his assessment?
"Some people evidently regard Avalokiteshvara, Tara, etc., as actually existing entities, and in fact in Tibetan Buddhism they’ve been coming to blows over whether one of these figures is in fact a force of good or otherwise. But to me they are symbolic archetypes through which experiences of compassion, wisdom, etc., can manifest themselves to us. To give a mild flavor of this, psychology experiments have shown that if someone is asked to think about a professor before they take a quiz, they perform better. The idea of a professor seems to help people get in touch with their own intelligence. Similarly, I believe, the archetypal bodhisattvas and Buddhas can help us get in touch with our own wisdom and compassion.
I’ve had bodhisattvas appear to me in my dreams, but I don’t take that as a “visitation” from a actually existing entity. I’ve even had “communication” from bodhisattvas, but again I take that as being one part of my brain communicating with another through an imagined image and voice.
As Roshi Bernie Glassman says, in Infinite Circle: Teachings in Zen, “Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva is the manifestation, or embodiment, of both prajna wisdom and compassion. Who is this Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva? It is nothing other than us, it is nothing other than who we intrinsically are … We must realize that Avalokitesvara is not separate — it’s us!”
Any thoughts? Do you agree with his assessment?
Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
What's the purpose of speculating about other people? What's the purpose of speculation at all?Nighthawk wrote:"Some people evidently regard Avalokiteshvara, Tara, etc., as ...
- Rinchen Dorje
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Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
Not all things have to be either/or...sometimes the answer is:
D. All of the above
D. All of the above
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
- mindyourmind
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Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
Maybe they are as real as we are
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.
Namkhai Norbu
Namkhai Norbu
Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
It seems a lot of westerners have the same mindset as the author of the article. Being brought up in a secular modern educational system seems to be why.mindyourmind wrote:Maybe they are as real as we are
- mindyourmind
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Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
Personally I am comfortable with either interpretation. I think that it can be a quite unnecessary obstacle in a person's practice if they are required to accept one of these versions that they may feel uncomfortable with. We generally work with these figures quite often, and it is important that a practitioner finds an answer, even if it is provisional, that allows her or him to continue effectively with that practice.Nighthawk wrote:It seems a lot of westerners have the same mindset as the author of the article. Being brought up in a secular modern educational system seems to be why.mindyourmind wrote:Maybe they are as real as we are
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.
Namkhai Norbu
Namkhai Norbu
Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
Yup.Fa Dao wrote:Not all things have to be either/or...sometimes the answer is:
D. All of the above
One of my favourite stories is of a practitioner who was chanting the mantra of Guanyin, but was having doubts. So he went to his guru and said "I need to know - is guanyin real or not? If she is, I will continue this practise, but if she is not, I longer wish to do it." To which the guru smiled and said "she knows she is not real."
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra
Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
Well this was written by someone from the FWBO so that shouldn't be a surprise.Nighthawk wrote:It seems a lot of westerners have the same mindset as the author of the article. Being brought up in a secular modern educational system seems to be why.mindyourmind wrote:Maybe they are as real as we are
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
I think you will find that mindyourmind meant: "How real are we? That's how real the Bodhisattvas are!"Nighthawk wrote:It seems a lot of westerners have the same mindset as the author of the article. Being brought up in a secular modern educational system seems to be why.mindyourmind wrote:Maybe they are as real as we are
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
- mindyourmind
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Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
Got it in onegregkavarnos wrote:I think you will find that mindyourmind meant: "How real are we? That's how real the Bodhisattvas are!"Nighthawk wrote:It seems a lot of westerners have the same mindset as the author of the article. Being brought up in a secular modern educational system seems to be why.mindyourmind wrote:Maybe they are as real as we are
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.
Namkhai Norbu
Namkhai Norbu
Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
Greg, I was saying it in a general manner even though I quoted her but yes I know what she was trying to say.gregkavarnos wrote:I think you will find that mindyourmind meant: "How real are we? That's how real the Bodhisattvas are!"Nighthawk wrote:It seems a lot of westerners have the same mindset as the author of the article. Being brought up in a secular modern educational system seems to be why.mindyourmind wrote:Maybe they are as real as we are
Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
Sorry, just from your answer it was not clear that you understood the statement, better to err on the side of caution...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
Did some further reading of his posts, the guy doesn't believe in rebirth either.
Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
We believe in past events, although they don't exist. The reason we think there is a past is our memory, which is only a matter of mental functioning. We also find explanation in "past events" for our present situation.
The same works with any "uncommon" beings. We don't see them out there as we do people, but there are other forms of experience we have. We can also identify effects to relate to those beings. And then we can also ask why it is Guanyin and not Jesus, why Vairocana and not Allah? From a Buddhist perspective, all of them exists, but in different realms and with different functions. Bodhisattvas are enlightened beings, gods are not.
Materialists like to say that it's all in people's minds. But aren't interpretations and explanations are all mental creations? Why some people get better and some don't? Materialists believe it's all about biology, but the scientists have not discovered the cause yet. That's a big faith in research, and they can show many results of research to prove their point. So, should we try to prove that there are invisible beings throughout the galaxy? Absurd.
What the difficulty is for modern people is that they have little idea of the existence of the mind and the mental realms. They are taught that there is only matter and everything is made of matter. So they become ignorant of their own mind and their own perception of the world. Meditation teaches people to become aware of it. However, old views and old habits die hard.
The same works with any "uncommon" beings. We don't see them out there as we do people, but there are other forms of experience we have. We can also identify effects to relate to those beings. And then we can also ask why it is Guanyin and not Jesus, why Vairocana and not Allah? From a Buddhist perspective, all of them exists, but in different realms and with different functions. Bodhisattvas are enlightened beings, gods are not.
Materialists like to say that it's all in people's minds. But aren't interpretations and explanations are all mental creations? Why some people get better and some don't? Materialists believe it's all about biology, but the scientists have not discovered the cause yet. That's a big faith in research, and they can show many results of research to prove their point. So, should we try to prove that there are invisible beings throughout the galaxy? Absurd.
What the difficulty is for modern people is that they have little idea of the existence of the mind and the mental realms. They are taught that there is only matter and everything is made of matter. So they become ignorant of their own mind and their own perception of the world. Meditation teaches people to become aware of it. However, old views and old habits die hard.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
Astus, thanks for your reply. I guess its pretty common for modernists to believe that enlightened beings do not exist at all which is false and reveals arrogance, but it would also be incorrect to say that they do exist. It's all about the middle way...
- DarwidHalim
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Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
If someday you become Bodhisattva Nighthawk, are you symbolic?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
Like I mentioned - that's the FWBO for you. All very western and rational.Nighthawk wrote:Did some further reading of his posts, the guy doesn't believe in rebirth either.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
"western" and "rational" isn't a problem in itself. It becomes problematic when it becomes reductive, as when one concludes that things one doesn't understand must not exist or must be false.
Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
Ignorance parading as logic! I think many problems also start to arise when we confound logic with materialist explanations. Like something cannot be logical if it is not based on materialistic notions.Jikan wrote:"western" and "rational" isn't a problem in itself. It becomes problematic when it becomes reductive, as when one concludes that things one doesn't understand must not exist or must be false.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: "Myth busting" the Bodhisattvas
I think we're saying the same thing in different ways, Greg. I'm saying that people get in trouble when they make reductive claims on the basis of faulty premises and call that reason. That's not too far from your position if I understand you correctly.gregkavarnos wrote:Ignorance parading as logic! I think many problems also start to arise when we confound logic with materialist explanations. Like something cannot be logical if it is not based on materialistic notions.Jikan wrote:"western" and "rational" isn't a problem in itself. It becomes problematic when it becomes reductive, as when one concludes that things one doesn't understand must not exist or must be false.