YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval - Page 14 - Dhamma Wheel

something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:28 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:08 pm


User avatar
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:40 pm


User avatar
piotr
Posts: 405
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Khettadesa

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby piotr » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:32 pm

Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

User avatar
Sobeh
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:35 am
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, US
Contact:

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Sobeh » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:10 pm

Perhaps this will be of some use:

[L(etter) 08]
2 May 1964 to Mr. Wijerama
Written by Ven. Ñanavira

"You ask for Sutta references of passages where the Buddha has 'explained in specific terms the structure of change'. Beyond the two uppāda/vaya/thitassa aññathattam references (both given in ANICCA), I do not know of any at all. Perhaps this will astonish you; but the fact that the Buddha does not seem to have discussed the structure of change beyond this is, I think, not hard to understand. The point is this: provided a person does not have any preconceived ideas about the structure of change, an understanding of this structure is not necessary for the attainment of nibbāna."


User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Alex123 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:58 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:19 pm


User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Alex123 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:24 pm

Last edited by Alex123 on Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:32 pm


User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Alex123 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:37 pm

Last edited by Alex123 on Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:49 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Alex123 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:11 pm

Last edited by Alex123 on Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Individual » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:13 pm

The confusion arises because of language.

"A is A" is an assumption that's made intrinsically when using language.

Language involves making distinctions in order to communicate to others:

1. Language involves making distinctions. If you are not making distinctions when using language, why are you speaking? Even if you say, "I agree," that, too, is a distinction. Because you are saying, "I am a person who agrees with you (which is distinguished from those who may disagree with you)". If the listener already understands what you know, what is the function of language?

2. Language involves the assumption of self & other. If you do not make this assumption, what is the function of language? If there is no such self\other distinction, when speaking this means either you are talking to yourself, somebody else is talking to themselves, or you are talking to nobody, or there is no communication going on at all because there are no selves and others to communicate.

3. Language involves the assumption that things endure for a given interval. Specifically, the use of terms involves the assumption that these terms reflect things which endure. Otherwise, if everything is "total flux," as one person put it, what is the function of terms? Why are terms even being used if they don't reflect independently enduring realities?

This is the nature of language; it is not necessarily the nature of reality. It may be true in reality that the highest knowledge that can be attained through language is false, or at least not as true as the highest knowledge that can be attained by other means. And this is not something that can be understood only through using language, because language is only capable of clarifying the logical relationships between pre-existing definitions. It does nothing to establish the validity of given terms and phrases, or the validity of their stated relationships.

Therefore, it may be true that in reality the most logical distinctions are actually false ones, and therefore: no self\other, universal impermanence, "total flux", etc.. These things can be extraordinarily intuitive, useful, and powerful objects of truth in the mind. But when it's put into words, it sounds like bad philosophy. But it's something we discover from right concentration and right mindfulness.

This is how the apparently exclusive frameworks of paramatha dhammas and "total flux" fit together. The paramatha dhammas are the clearest way of expressing ultimate knowledge (rationally) conventionally, while flux is an irrational term because it contradicts the law of identity and the paramatha-dhammas too, but being irrational doesn't make it wrong, as it is actually more reflective of ultimate reality than the so-called paramatha-dhammas. But to call flux "paramatha," would render the entire expression inconsistent and would therefore not be conducive to others' liberation. It would not be conducive to others' liberation, because they would simply say, "That's bad philosophy," unless they have Mahayana-like minds, in which case it seems it could be useful. :)
The best things in life aren't things.


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Nyana » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:58 pm


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Nyana » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:08 am


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:14 am

:goodpost:
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Individual » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:35 am

I liked Geoff's post too. :)
The best things in life aren't things.


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:24 am


User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Prasadachitta » Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:41 am

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Individual » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:06 am

Last edited by Individual on Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
The best things in life aren't things.



Return to “Connections to Other Paths”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine