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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby Josef » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:56 pm

Wesley1982 wrote:It is widely held as Christian dogma that Jesus son of Mary was conceived/born without a human father. :shrug:

In my opinion this was added later when the mythology was compiled and written down, just like with the Buddha birth story.
Institutional religions are notorious for having celibate men compose their histories and rules. That is why we have so much sexual repression and misogyny in our religious texts.

The great man Jesus had a dad and his dad had a penis. His penis was at least once inside his mom.
That is how babies are made.
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby Josef » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:58 pm

justsit wrote:Whom are you trying to convince, Mint?

Anyone he can.
our friend mint is on a mission of personal frustration.
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby Blue Garuda » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:07 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:
The great man Jesus had a dad and his dad had a penis. His penis was at least once inside his mom.
That is how babies are made.



It just popped into my mind that maybe what was meant was that a Bodhisattva chose to be reborn in the human realm.
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby justsit » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:12 pm

Nangwa wrote:
justsit wrote:Whom are you trying to convince, Mint?

Anyone he can.


Himself, primarily, I think.
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:18 pm

The fundamental underlying assumption is that this story of jesus has authority in and of itself. The bible is merely a book with stories in it, it has no power or authority by itself. Any legitimacy or power it has is solely what is imputed upon it. One has to believe it, and belief is no different than opinion. Just as I am stating my belief/opinion at this moment. Things are what we make them, we like to believe it is the other way around. Just because there is a collective movement behind a certain belief or opinion doesn't make it legitimate, however in most cases it ends up becoming a paradigm which delegates a pseudo-standard of legitimacy via default.

A belief stands alone, and then one either forms attachment or aversion to it. If attachment occurs the belief has to be defended because it doesn't have any power by itself. One has to fight to uphold it's legitimacy and will seek others who mirror their own beliefs so they can feel comfortable and reinforced. The same goes for one who forms aversion to a belief, they fall victim to the same factors. Disbelief is still belief, one only believes the opposite extreme. Due to these attachments or aversions suffering arises, conflict, war (within and without).

It can be seen unraveling in this very thread, where we are attached, where we avert. The finding of sources to back up claims which reinforce points of view regarding ones respective position on a belief or opinion. These are the seeds of separation. Myself, I see the game and I bow out.

That being said, I enjoy Buddhism because the belief aspect of it is irrelevant. It is an empirical investigation and an experiential endeavor. Belief eventually becomes a binding factor in Buddhism (and can hold one back). Though I am happy for those who benefit from believing whatever it is they choose to believe (and if benefit is derived from it that is a good thing), my not so humble opinion is that belief is slavery.

And I don't fall victim to that opinion because it's seen for what it is, it is consciously employed, and holds no power other than that which I give it (unless of course I share it publicly like I just did :tongue: then it is also endowed with the power others give it, and thus the seeds of karma are sewn).
Last edited by asunthatneversets on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby Wesley1982 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:26 pm

Jikan wrote:Yes, but knowledge of what, specifically?


The knowledge gained from reading the opinions of a diverse group of people.
Last edited by Wesley1982 on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby mint » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:26 pm

Nangwa wrote:our friend mint is on a mission of personal frustration.


I think if you read mindyourmind's last post, you'll take notice of the real frustration.

It's easier to dismiss me, though, when you can't counter with an intelligent argument in defense.
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby Jikan » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:28 pm

Wesley1982 wrote:
Jikan wrote:
mint wrote:
Does Buddhism not state that ignorance is due to lack of knowledge?

I concur.


Yes, but knowledge of what, specifically?


I would say the knowledge gained from reading the opinions of a diverse group of people.


It's more immediate and, shall we say, personal than that.
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby Josef » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:04 pm

mint wrote:
Nangwa wrote:our friend mint is on a mission of personal frustration.




It's easier to dismiss me, though, when you can't counter with an intelligent argument in defense.


There is nothing to defend.
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby Josef » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:05 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:
The great man Jesus had a dad and his dad had a penis. His penis was at least once inside his mom.
That is how babies are made.



It just popped into my mind that maybe what was meant was that a Bodhisattva chose to be reborn in the human realm.

Thats a possibility I suppose but even bodhisattvas in the human realm need penises and vaginas in order to take birth.
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:43 pm

Wesley1982 wrote:It is widely held as Christian dogma that Jesus son of Mary was conceived/born without a human father. :shrug:


Virgin births stories were around long before Jesus. Osiris and other virgin birth mythologies existed hundreds of years before the Christian birth story was created. Greek mythology (which dates to well before the time of Jesus) is full of stories of gods impregnating mortal women. The influence of Greek culture on the early Christians no doubt led to the creation of that story. The New Testament records Jesus saying, "I am the alpha and the omega" yet Jesus spoke Aramaic-Hebrew. Such a statement is not Hebrew and would actually not make any sense to even attempt to say such a thing in Hebrew.
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:56 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:It is widely held as Christian dogma that Jesus son of Mary was conceived/born without a human father. :shrug:


Virgin births stories were around long before Jesus. Osiris and other virgin birth mythologies existed hundreds of years before the Christian birth story was created. Greek mythology (which dates to well before the time of Jesus) is full of stories of gods impregnating mortal women. The influence of Greek culture on the early Christians no doubt led to the creation of that story....


Though it's met fierce resistance from Christians who have attempted to debunk this info, this first section of the 2007 documentary Zeitgeist covers the long list of virgin births which predated jesus. I believe there are rebuttal videos (assembled by christians) which attempt to smear Zeitgeist, and then further subsequent debunking (of the christian debunking) done by Zeitgeist proponents. It's definitely an ongoing back and forth controversy (as any good religious debate should be), but here's the original video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby Infinite » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:26 am

Nangwa wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:It is widely held as Christian dogma that Jesus son of Mary was conceived/born without a human father. :shrug:

In my opinion this was added later when the mythology was compiled and written down, just like with the Buddha birth story.
Institutional religions are notorious for having celibate men compose their histories and rules. That is why we have so much sexual repression and misogyny in our religious texts.

The great man Jesus had a dad and his dad had a penis. His penis was at least once inside his mom.
That is how babies are made.

Pretty much there is little reference to any divinity in the Gospels but it is hinted at. The reality is Christianity needed to have Jesus be Divine in order to break from the hierarchy of Judaism as it was little different than various Judaic Sects at the time. Therefore I feel that the break was largely politically motivated in order to have separate hierarchies. If Christianity had remained on its path it would be nothing more than a following of Jews who adhere to an obscure Rabbi but with the myth of Divinity it creates a whole new religion.
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby Sonam Wangchug » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:33 am

Nangwa wrote:
Thats a possibility I suppose but even bodhisattvas in the human realm need penises and vaginas in order to take birth.
'

Than what's your take on Guru Rinpoche?
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby Josef » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:48 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Thats a possibility I suppose but even bodhisattvas in the human realm need penises and vaginas in order to take birth.
'

Than what's your take on Guru Rinpoche?

Guru Rinpoche was a man born to parents who had penises and vaginas.
Thats my take. I dont buy the floral-birth legend at all and actually think it is completely unnecessary.
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:02 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Thats a possibility I suppose but even bodhisattvas in the human realm need penises and vaginas in order to take birth.
'

Than what's your take on Guru Rinpoche?


Some say Guru Rinpoche's father was Drenpa Namkha.
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Re: Buddhism on God

Postby muni » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:03 am

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche was meeting a traveller along the way in India. The traveller had no idea Rinpoche is buddhist but saw some kind of religious person.
The traveller said: my God came from Jerusalem.
Rinpoche said: my God actually come from where you come from.

The traveller was bit annoyed, thought Rinpoche was joking.

sound is unclear. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT7RueeUHVg
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:03 am

Let us not confuse virgin birth with immaculate conception.

This account: "Queen Māyā and King Suddhodhana did not have children for twenty years into their marriage. According to legend, One full moon night, sleeping in the palace, the queen had a vivid dream. She felt herself being carried away by four devas (spirits) to Lake Anotatta in the Himalayas. After bathing her in the lake, the devas clothed her in heavenly cloths, anointed her with perfumes, and bedecked her with divine flowers. Soon after a white elephant, holding a white lotus flower in its trunk, appeared and went round her three times, entering her womb through her right side. Finally the elephant disappeared and the queen awoke, knowing she had been delivered an important message, as the elephant is a symbol of greatness in Nepal..." does not exclude the act of fornication BEFORE (either immediately so or days before) going to sleep and having the dream.

The account of Queen Maya giving birth "through her side" may be a metaphorical description of birth via caesarian section. The practice of caesarian section is recorded in accounts dating back to 300BC, so there is no reason to believe that it was not in effect earlier. The fact that Queen Maya died soon after (from three to seven days later) could thus be easily justified. Truth is though that death after vaginal birth was not (and in some parts of the world, is still not) an uncommon phenomenon.

So before we start getting all metaphysical we can examine all the boring old human options.
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One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby mint » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:57 pm

Infinite wrote:The reality is Christianity needed to have Jesus be Divine in order to break from the hierarchy of Judaism as it was little different than various Judaic Sects at the time. Therefore I feel that the break was largely politically motivated in order to have separate hierarchies. If Christianity had remained on its path it would be nothing more than a following of Jews who adhere to an obscure Rabbi but with the myth of Divinity it creates a whole new religion.


Again, you're wrong.

Jesus didn't need to be divine for Christianity to do anything. Some of the greatest, most influential "heresies" in the years following the death of Jesus posited that he was a man, not divine. Furthermore, you need to re-read every single one of Paul's letters, who believed in the divinity of Jesus, who was a faithful Jew, who advocated inclusion for both the Jews and the Greeks, and foresaw the day when all Jews and Greeks worshipped together.
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Re: Buddhist opinions about the Historical Jesus

Postby mint » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:24 pm

asunthatneversets wrote: my not so humble opinion is that belief is slavery.


It's true. There is a lot riding on the belief that a select few of best-selling authors represent the majority opinion.
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