Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:49 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 198 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:08 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
LightSeed wrote:
By whoever sees it as such, yes, sure, why not, like Dechen said, it's just a label.
Hogwash. If that is the case then communication means nothing. Labels are used as signifiers to easily define objects that possess certain common characteristics. If it's tall, hairy, brown coloured, with four legs and a saddle then it would be just plain retarded to call it a cenitpede.

Labels are incredibly important for communication at the relative level, a level that we constantly inhabit.
Quote:
Since it's not a form of buddhism, it has no sangha, no teachers, nothing more than this one guy's paragraph on his own blog, I was struggling with how it's being seen as a threat to Buddhism.
It's not a threat to Buddhism, it is not Buddhism. It may be Buddhist inspired, but it's not Buddhism. How it even managed to get a wiki reference, I don't even know. I imagine the wiki entry was probably put together by the person that was quoted in the entry (or by one of their supporters). It doesn't threaten Buddhism, it threatens to draw the ignorant and unknowing (yourself, for example) into believeing they are practicing Buddhism when in fact they are just wrapped up in ego-centred materialism.
Quote:
Coming back to comparative Christianity, I had clearly been seeing it differently. Buddhists are seeing navayana as buddhism without fundamental parts of buddhism. Christianity without a god. I was seeing it as perhaps Christianity without say....angels. Which is why I asked where the line is, what the qualifications for Buddhism are. The missing angels are ok, but the missing God is not...or missing both is not ok.
The basic qualifications for Dharma are the three/four seals.

This is the first of a series of 12 videos explaining the Four Seals of Dharma, by Karmapa Thaye Trinley Dorje.
:namaste:

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm
Posts: 805
Huseng wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
Astonishing and tragic. I am quite drawn to Shingon, but due to the lack of resources in the US (esp in the North-East), there was no way I could even learn the basics from a proper center. There is a movement of Chinese Bhikshus (mostly from Taiwan and south-east Asia) going to Japan to learn and bring back the teachings, in a bid to revive Zhengyan, together with whatever that is left of Hanmi (there are actually still authentic esoteric practitioners in China, but from what I gather it is probably just parts of the original Zhengyan corpus of teachings, or very early Vajrayana practices). Appears that there is greater urgency for them to complete this undertaking.


There are still plenty of esoteric practices such as mantras and certain rituals within mainstream Chinese Buddhism, though they're not specifically called "mijiao" 密教. However, ideas and practices exclusively stemming from esoteric scriptures such as the Mahāvairocana Sūtra might not so easily found, though it might be there in the general fabric. Actually if you could become functional in Mandarin and Classical Buddhist Chinese you could just as easily find Mijiao teachers in Taiwan while not excluding Chan or Pure Land teachers and general Mahāyāna practices. In fact, my friend in Taiwan who is studying Mijiao under a lay teacher has done so with relative ease compared to what he would have faced in Japan. In Japan he probably would have had to ordain and possibly shell out a lot of money to receive formal instruction in a seminary type program. Even if he didn't have to attend a seminary program, just finding a willing teacher and financially supporting yourself in Japan can be a struggle. In Taiwan the cost of living is low and most Buddhist masters as I understand it are all too happy to help foreigners especially practice Buddhism.

This is why I think if you're serious about East Asian Buddhism, Taiwan is the place to be. There is a lot more support. For example, a lot of temples in Taiwan give free lunch to anyone who shows up and many can provide lodging at little to no expense. In Japan Buddhist practice generally costs a lot of money. They'll charge you 500 yen ($6) just to walk inside some temples and admire the garden. In Taiwan they're quite serious about providing the dharma to anyone who seeks it, so the idea of charging admission into a temple is not there. Another example is how in Taiwan you can do Buddhist Studies for free at the Buddhist colleges while in Japan it costs over $11,000 / year for something equivalent. The priorities are completely different. In Taiwan it is educate people wanting to learn the dharma, in Japan it is train priests who are commonly expected to come from wealthy families. In Taiwan you pay nothing to become a monk, in Japan you pay at least $20,000 or more for two years of seminary.


I am actually conversant in Mandarin and can read modern Chinese (as a native Singaporean). Never had classical training, so 文言文 is out of the question. My master is actually one of those learning Shingon right now, but as he is based in Singapore I am no longer in constant communication with him. His root tradition is Chan, but with some esoteric practices that was passed on through his lineage.

Indeed. Taiwan's 四大名山 (the four great mountains) has done a great deal in strengthening Buddhism in the Sinophile world. At least for now, it is still the nexus of Han Buddhism.

_________________
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:59 pm
Posts: 47
gregkavarnos wrote:
It doesn't threaten Buddhism, it threatens to draw the ignorant and unknowing (yourself, for example) into believeing they are practicing Buddhism when in fact they are just wrapped up in ego-centred materialism.
Quote:
Coming back to comparative Christianity, I had clearly been seeing it differently. Buddhists are seeing navayana as buddhism without fundamental parts of buddhism. Christianity without a god. I was seeing it as perhaps Christianity without say....angels. Which is why I asked where the line is, what the qualifications for Buddhism are. The missing angels are ok, but the missing God is not...or missing both is not ok.
The basic qualifications for Dharma are the three/four seals.

This is the first of a series of 12 videos explaining the Four Seals of Dharma, by Karmapa Thaye Trinley Dorje.
:namaste:


Yep, thanks, as an ignorant and unknowing person on the verge of believing I'm practicing Buddhism when I'm really just an ego-centred materialist, The Four Seals of Dharma was exactly the reference I was looking for. Already provided by a couple of fine folks on here. Hopefully I'm a little less ignorant now.

_________________
"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:36 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
I would say that Navayana goes against the fourth Dharma seal: Nirvana is peace.

Why? Because if there is no rebirth and there are no ongoing consequences to ones actions, then physical death is peace (via annihilation). Since all beings achieve physical death (inesacapable due to the first seal: all compounded phenomena are impermanent) then practice becomes irrelevant. Buddhism is about Buddhist practice (in its various forms). Denying rebirth denies the necessity for practice for the goal of ultimate liberation (Nirvana).

Soooooo... indirectly (and possibly inadvertedly), Navayana undermines the mainstay of Buddhism: practice!
:namaste:
PS I did not intend to degrade you by referring to you as ignorant and unknowing, I meant it in terms of lacking knowledge of Buddhism.

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Posts: 2845
gregkavarnos wrote:
Buddhism is about Buddhist practice (in its various forms). Denying rebirth denies the necessity for practice for the goal of ultimate liberation (Nirvana).


I disagree.
Why couldn't a person who does not believe in rebirth try for realization in this lifetime, and if it isn't attained, then at least they gave it a good try.

In fact, if one thinks this is their only opportunity to realization, that might motivate some people to work even harder at it.

To their way of thinking, at the time of death, that would be the end of it.

But to a buddhist who believes in rebirth, they would see that that person would sow very good seeds of karma.

But it is actually not hard for a materialist to see that rebirth is possible.
Ask a materialist if they think that physical elements and the atoms that compose them
can consciously witness their own existence.
If they say no, then it is only a short step to seeing that rebirth is quite logical,
and it is only the view of an essential difference between life and eath that is not logical.
.
.
.

_________________
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm
Posts: 805
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Buddhism is about Buddhist practice (in its various forms). Denying rebirth denies the necessity for practice for the goal of ultimate liberation (Nirvana).


I disagree.
Why couldn't a person who does not believe in rebirth try for realization in this lifetime, and if it isn't attained, then at least they gave it a good try.

In fact, if one thinks this is their only opportunity to realization, that might motivate some people to work even harder at it.


Because it would be a totally futile exercise for them, since by rejecting rebirth, they would have wrong view and the eye of dharma can never arise in them. So we are actually doing a disservice to them by not telling them that without the fundamentals, they are wasting their time with Buddhist practice. Furthermore, they will propagate their wrong views to others, thereby causing grief for self and others.

_________________
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:51 pm
Posts: 40
Greetings to many potential new dharmakin, and sorry to come late to the conversation. There is a lot here to respond to -- I've made notes -- but I should ask, first, if I might be better off starting a new thread about new forms of Buddhism rather than carrying on in one that is about the opinions of one man who is not a Buddhist. I did note a link on the bottom of the first page to the Secular Buddhist Association -- which is chock full of the people I hang out with -- so maybe it's legitimate to talk about other forms of Buddhism here; the question, I guess, is will it be too confusing?

It seems to me this thread is already a bit tangled up in definitions. For an example, let's look at the last post above this one (if I'm fast enough writing this, it's the last above).

gregkavarnos wrote:
Buddhism is about Buddhist practice (in its various forms). Denying rebirth denies the necessity for practice for the goal of ultimate liberation (Nirvana).


Please note that greg is talking about "denying rebirth".

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
I disagree.
Why couldn't a person who does not believe in rebirth try for realization in this lifetime, and if it isn't attained, then at least they gave it a good try.


Please note that Padma is talking about "not believing in rebirth" -- not *denying* it.


pueraeternus wrote:

Because it would be a totally futile exercise for them, since by rejecting rebirth, they would have wrong view and the eye of dharma can never arise in them. So we are actually doing a disservice to them by not telling them that without the fundamentals, they are wasting their time with Buddhist practice. Furthermore, they will propagate their wrong views to others, thereby causing grief for self and others.


And here, pueraeternus is talking about "rejecting rebirth".

The distinction is important. If you go back and look at the original post, you won't find the author *rejecting* or *denying* rebirth, but expressing what he has noticed for himself when studying, "...rebirth strikes many of us as a metaphor rather than a literal reality..." There is no mention of materialism here -- the suggestion that this is what's going on is being added by readers. But the difference between "not believing in rebirth" and "rejecting or denying rebirth" is important because one of the Buddha's key points seems to me to be paying attention to the difference between what we know and have seen for ourselves, and what is speculative, and also to paying attention to how tightly we hold onto the views we base on what we have seen, and what is speculative.

And, relevant to this conversation, y'all are talking at cross-purposes when one person is making statements based on "rejection" and the other is answering based on "lack of belief" (rather than rejection).

:namaste:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:24 pm
Posts: 641
Location: Delaware
There are a number of threads with lengthy discussion of "Secular Buddhism," Stephen Batchelor, etc. You might want to check them out before starting another on the same subject.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Posts: 2845
Okay, I am talking about rejecting any belief in rebirth.
The point is the same:. A person does not think rebirth occurs.

The question is, can a person really be practicing dharma with the goal of
perfect (complete) freedom from suffering (aka becoming a buddha, realizing buddhahood, attaining enlightenment, reaching nirvana, etc.) if one does not accept the notion of rebirth as valid.

Well, anybody can practice compassion and develop wisdom, and a person can meditate.
there are all kinds of things which people can take from Buddhism
in order to make their miserable lives a little less miserable.
I think this is what people refer to as Buddhism lite.
Concepts of rebirth do not play a big role in that.

But can a person attain full realization without accepting something he or she cannot personally prove or establish by reasonable deduction to one's satisfaction, rebirth.?

I think it is quite possible, if the conditions lead one to that.
It might not be likely to happen.
Why would it not be possible?
.
.
.

_________________
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:32 am
Posts: 307
Location: Laurel, MD
gregkavarnos wrote:
I'll take it you are from a Christian country and have some knowledge of Christianity right? (or any Abrahamic religion for that matter). So let's say I came along one sunny day and say I am a New Christian. As a New Christian I do not believe in God. I also don't believe there is a heaven and a hell (and a purgatory for the Catholics amongst us), we live our life and then we die. There is no reward or punishment for our actions past those dealt out by the state judicial system. I don't believe that Christ is the son of God. I reckon he was just some clued up dude. I don't believe everything written in the bible if it does not accord with my sensibilities. I reckon the ten commandments are okay, though the bits about "the Lord your God and no other God but me" is kind of archaic and outdated and anyway, since I don't believe in an all-knowing all-powerful God, I just let it slide. etc... That is New Christianity.

Do you reckon it "deserves" to be called Christianity?


Hi Greg,

Actually, there is a fairly large spectrum of interpretation within Christianity when it comes to some of these topics -- whether scripture is to be taken literally on all counts, the nature of hell and heaven, the divinity of Christ, the nature of God, etc.

Here is the late Billy Graham speaking about hell:

Billy Graham wrote:
I think that hell essentially is separation from God forever. And that is the worst hell that I can think of. But I think people have a hard time believing God is going to allow people to burn in literal fire forever. I think the fire that is mentioned in the Bible is a burning thirst for God that can never be quenched...Jesus used three words to describe hell. … The third word that He used is ‘fire.’ Jesus used this symbol over and over. This could be literal fire, as many believe. Or it could be symbolic. God does have fires that do not burn. And also there is the figurative use of fire in the Bible. … I’ve often thought that this fire could possibly be a burning thirst for God that is never quenched. What a terrible fire that would be never to find satisfaction, joy, or fulfillment!”


There is also Liberal Christianity, a movement which has been going strong for at least a century or so.

It's not even clear whether, or in what way, the earliest Christians regarded Jesus as divine. According to some scholars, during Jesus's time the phrase "Son of God" did not have the connotation we give it today -- it was probably elaborated during the centuries after his death, as part of the deification process that is seen in many religious or spiritual movements after the teacher's passing.

The question of what does and doesn't belong within the scope/definition of a particular religion is rarely simple -- there are instructive examples from Islam as well. Some Muslims don't consider Bektashis and other Sufi-related movements to be "real Islam", for instance.

From an early Buddhist perspective, there is hardly a more essential teaching than anatta. And yet in Mahayana/Vajrayana we find a substantial departure from that teaching. Arguably this is a more significant difference than anything having to do with belief in rebirth. So is it still "Buddhism"?

Paul Williams wrote:
One thing anyway is clear. The Mahaparinirvat,la Sutra teaches a really existing, permanent element (Tibetan: yang dag khams) in sentient
beings. It is this element which enables sentient beings to become Buddhas. It is beyond egoistic self-grasping - indeed the very opposite of self-grasping - but it otherwise fulfils several of the requirements of a Self in the Indian tradition. Whether this is called the Real, True, Transcendental Self or not is as such immaterial, but what is historically
interesting is that this sutra in particular (although joined by some other Tathagatagarbha sutras) is prepared to use the word 'Self (atman) for this element. However one looks at it the Mahaparinirvana Sutra is quite self-consciously modifying or criticizing the no-Self traditions of Buddhism.

_________________
Rubblework


Last edited by Lazy_eye on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:07 am, edited 20 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:59 pm
Posts: 47
nowheat wrote:
The distinction is important. If you go back and look at the original post, you won't find the author *rejecting* or *denying* rebirth, but expressing what he has noticed for himself when studying, "...rebirth strikes many of us as a metaphor rather than a literal reality..." There is no mention of materialism here -- the suggestion that this is what's going on is being added by readers. But the difference between "not believing in rebirth" and "rejecting or denying rebirth" is important because one of the Buddha's key points seems to me to be paying attention to the difference between what we know and have seen for ourselves, and what is speculative, and also to paying attention to how tightly we hold onto the views we base on what we have seen, and what is speculative.


Thank you nowheat, very much a point I'd been trying to make.

I probably would not have started this thread if I'd run into the thread about the Secular Buddhist Association before posting this. Unfortunately I didn't know what I was looking for since I'd only come across the idea on the George Boeree site.

_________________
"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:44 am
Posts: 66
Location: Koyasan, Japan
Huseng wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
Huseng,

Do you know if this is also the case for Shingon practitioners/priests?


I have little experience with Shingon priests specifically, but it wouldn't surprise me to know of revisionism in Shingon as well. In Jodo Shinshu of all Japanese schools there are priests saying the pure land is really inside you and not something to be reborn in post-mortem (you might not expect that kind of development). Again, a lot of revisionism going around.

...

In my experience and opinion, Japanese Buddhism as it stands now is degenerate and in many cases (but not all) no longer qualifies as Buddhadharma. Discipline and observances (precepts and so on) might be neglected, but a lot of fundamental aspects of Buddhadharma (karma and rebirth being the two key ones) are simply rejected in contemporary Japan, at least in the intellectual spheres (who are also the upper echelons and leadership). It is largely just a hereditary priesthood that earns a comfortable income, or supplementary tax-free income, by performing archaic rituals that few know the meaning of anymore. The same thing has occurred in Shinto where you have priests who really don't believe that Kami exist, yet nevertheless maintain shrines and perform rituals for money.

If people express an interest in Zen, I advise them to investigate and pursue Chan as it taught and practised in Taiwan. If someone expresses an interest in Vajrayana I'll advise them to look into Tibetan Buddhism for the simple fact that despite all the institutional nonsense you can still relatively easily find legitimate teachers and resources in English. Going for the Kalacakra initiation is a lot easier than getting something of equivalent power in Shingon (which normally requires ordination as a priest). If you want to do Shingon you'll have to learn at least two new languages and live in Japan, or possibly Taiwan. To practise it also requires ordination.

I really like Japanese Buddhism. Its history, figures and ideas really had me attracted to Buddhism when I was a teenager. However, after living in Japan for three years and doing a MA degree there I concluded if you want to practice Mahayana Buddhadharma and not just be an academic, you would do best to pursue the interest either in Taiwan or with Tibetan Buddhism.




Huseng spent three years in Japan as a student, I have been in Japan for thirty-two years now, eighteen of them as a Shingon priest in Koyasan. Perhaps Huseng saw only what he expected to see in Japan, or perhaps his experiences were unfortunate, but what he describes of Japanese Buddhism and what I know of it don't match up.

He says he has "little experience in Shingon" but then goes on to make some extraordinary claims about it. Its quite plain to me that he in fact has little or no experience or knowledge of what Shingon is, or teaches. It would be good, in that case, to refrain from further commenting, but that wasn't the case once again.

Shingon strongly emphasizes both literal rebirth and karma, from page one (literally, I'm referring to a new Shingon English manual that will appear next month). I know of not a single Shingon priest who denies either, including those in the "upper echelons and leadership" of both Koyasan Shingon Buddhism and Koyasan University. The widespread belief is also that Kukai (born 774) himself was Amoghavajra's reincarnation (died 774), and that Huiguo and Kukai alternated appearing in the world as teacher and master for many generations for the benefit of living beings. There are other stories of that type. And the depth of importance and repeated appearance in standard Shingon texts, classical and modern, for all levels of practitioners, of rebirth and karma is undeniable.

Huseng seemed to imply that Shingon does not teach these things, so I would like to make that record straight first. It does, in the traditional way. I don't know what Zen or anything else teaches, but Shingon is not Zen. Perhaps someone else will speak for Zen in Japan.

Huseng states "If you want to do Shingon you'll have to learn at least two new languages and live in Japan, or possibly Taiwan. To practise it also requires ordination." He doesn't recognize my own work over several years now to prepare a complete series of manuals and training materials for a full and formally recognized Shingon training program in English, some already published, the rest to be published within the next two years. Some members here have seen the published material already. This publishing project is run by Kongobuji temple, the temple I work at and the head temple of Koyasan Shingon Buddhism. Also Koyasan Shingon Buddhism's unstinting efforts to establish a new and directly operated training center in the US that will begin operation this year (formal announcement forthcoming), with additional new US centers opening afterwards. The training in these centers using these English materials will be formally recognized and recorded by Koyasan Shingon Buddhism.

Huseng appreciates East Asian culture, but perhaps only when it suits him? I refer to his statement that ordination is required to study Shingon formally. This is absolutely true. As he also well knows (and tells us so often), it is not a fully monastic ordination. It is essentially a fundamental commitment as a lay person (meaning a non-Vinaya holder) to the Shingon path. Is it wrong to ask for a serious and tangible commitment from people before undertaking the very demanding process (for all parties) of formal training? East Asian culture typically requires people to jump through hoops to make progress in any traditional field. You don't get anything worthwhile or authentic just by walking in off the street and asking for it, and particularly not by demanding it. On the other hand, if you are humble, patient, persevering, respectful and play by the rules Shingon Buddhism makes for its own training regimen, you will get everything that there is to offer according to a regular curriculum, nothing held back unless you create problems for yourself. And everything available in English very soon.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm
Posts: 805
nowheat wrote:

Please note that greg is talking about "denying rebirth".

Please note that Padma is talking about "not believing in rebirth" -- not *denying* it.

And here, pueraeternus is talking about "rejecting rebirth".

The distinction is important.


I think this is really just semantics - when we talk about rebirth here, we meant literal rebirth - in the most literal sense of it.

_________________
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm
Posts: 805
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Well, anybody can practice compassion and develop wisdom, and a person can meditate.
there are all kinds of things which people can take from Buddhism
in order to make their miserable lives a little less miserable.
I think this is what people refer to as Buddhism lite.
Concepts of rebirth do not play a big role in that.

.


I think these qualities are you mentioned are just too general for a label to be applied, be it Buddhism, Sufism, or whatever, When we talk about a person being a Buddhist (or Sufi, Christian contemplative, whatever), it is naturally expected for certain qualifying factors. For "Buddhist", the fundamental tenets are such qualifying factors, which includes the Four Noble Truths, karma and rebirth. Just because I can build a computer from parts, does not qualify me as an Apple certified engineer.

_________________
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:51 pm
Posts: 40
pueraeternus wrote:
nowheat wrote:

...denying rebirth... not believing in rebirth...

The distinction is important.


I think this is really just semantics - when we talk about rebirth here, we meant literal rebirth - in the most literal sense of it.


It isn't just semantics; perhaps thinking that there is no distinction will block understanding of what's being said by the Navayana quote author, or secular Buddhists.

There is belief in rebirth, there is belief that there is no such thing as rebirth, and then there is the middle way, which is to neither believe nor disbelieve in something one has no experience with, nor good evidence for. So I don't say "There is no literal rebirth after death" because how would I know this? Neither do I say "There is literal rebirth after death" because I don't know that either. If there were very strong evidence for either one -- perhaps just about everyone I know experienced it, or I have experienced it in a very convincing way, as have many others -- then I would have something to go on, but I don't, so I don't invest in views about these things -- I await further evidence.

The Buddha says there is rebirth? I'll look out for it, I'll keep it in mind. If it is a fact, and I keep an open mind, it will become clear to me in time, right?

When I do this -- read what the Buddha says about rebirth, and look for the evidence, the evidence I see agrees with the original quote.

:namaste:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm
Posts: 805
eijo wrote:

Huseng states "If you want to do Shingon you'll have to learn at least two new languages and live in Japan, or possibly Taiwan. To practise it also requires ordination." He doesn't recognize my own work over several years now to prepare a complete series of manuals and training materials for a full and formally recognized Shingon training program in English, some already published, the rest to be published within the next two years. Some members here have seen the published material already. This publishing project is run by Kongobuji temple, the temple I work at and the head temple of Koyasan Shingon Buddhism. Also Koyasan Shingon Buddhism's unstinting efforts to establish a new and directly operated training center in the US that will begin operation this year (formal announcement forthcoming), with additional new US centers opening afterwards. The training in these centers using these English materials will be formally recognized and recorded by Koyasan Shingon Buddhism.


Rev Eijo,

Is Shingon.org still affiliated with Koyasan? I tried to order books from the website 2 years ago and after a few exchanges, I stopped hearing from a Rev. Eijun.

Great news if Koyasan is renewing its efforts to reach out beyond Japanese shores. Please do keep us updated - I am sure a lot of people here will be interested.

_________________
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm
Posts: 805
nowheat wrote:

The Buddha says there is rebirth? I'll look out for it, I'll keep it in mind. If it is a fact, and I keep an open mind, it will become clear to me in time, right?

When I do this -- read what the Buddha says about rebirth, and look for the evidence, the evidence I see agrees with the original quote.

:namaste:


I am afraid for a lot of people like yourself, you will only see evidence as you deem fit, as is the experience of some of us old-timers from E-Sangha. I can go on showing references from sutras and so on, but this thread is not the place for it. I can almost anticipate what your responses would most likely be. Anyway.

Everyone is free to keep their mind open, but so are properly trained Buddhists free to state their views on what the teachings really say. Ok?

_________________
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:51 pm
Posts: 40
justsit wrote:
There are a number of threads with lengthy discussion of "Secular Buddhism," Stephen Batchelor, etc. You might want to check them out before starting another on the same subject.


Thanks. I'll see if anyone's still alive and kicking in those threads.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:51 pm
Posts: 40
pueraeternus wrote:
I am afraid for a lot of people like yourself, you will only see evidence as you deem fit, as is the experience of some of us old-timers from E-Sangha. I can go on showing references from sutras and so on, but this thread is not the place for it. I can almost anticipate what your responses would most likely be. Anyway.

Everyone is free to keep their mind open, but so are properly trained Buddhists free to state their views on what the teachings really say. Ok?


My response is that you seem to think you know enough about me to know what I think, and how I practice -- well enough to read my mind -- but I'm pretty sure you don't. When you assume that a stranger is bending evidence to fit a preconception, might it be because you are bending evidence to fit your preconception of them?

:namaste:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navayana Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm
Posts: 805
nowheat wrote:
My response is that you seem to think you know enough about me to know what I think, and how I practice -- well enough to read my mind -- but I'm pretty sure you don't. When you assume that a stranger is bending evidence to fit a preconception, might it be because you are bending evidence to fit your preconception of them?

:namaste:


Well, based on what you wrote, one could deduce where you lean towards when it comes to this subject. It's not always 100% sure, but I have enough experience to gauge it correctly most of the time.

As someone recommended, do check out the other threads here on Secular Buddhism. You might find a recurring theme.

_________________
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 198 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 10  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Phuntsog Tashi and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group