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The 2nd noble knowledge: how to practise? - Dhamma Wheel

The 2nd noble knowledge: how to practise?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
starter
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The 2nd noble knowledge: how to practise?

Postby starter » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:06 am

Hi friend,

What's your opinion about the second noble knowledge mentioned in MN 48?

“Again, the noble disciple reflects When I practise and develop this view much, I experience internal appeasement, and internal extinction. This is the second noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary.”

I personally think "this view" is the right view for how to practise -- the right path for getting to the "ancient city". That is, first obtaining tranquility through the gradual training that the buddha taught us, then gaining penetration to the insight knowledge (anicca/dukkha/anatta, dependant origination and the 4 noble truths) .

In MN 107, the Buddha showed us the gradual training for obtaining tranquility:
1) Morality
2) Sense-control
3) Moderation in eating [wholesome eating]
4) Vigilance [watchfulness; dwell on intent to cleanse the mind of obstructive mental states]
5) Mindfulness and clear comprehension
6) Overcoming of the five hindrances
7) Jhana

"Brahman, such is my instruction for those monks who are learners who, perfection being not yet attained, dwell longing for the incomparable security from the bonds. …”

"Even so, brahman, nibbana does exist, the way leading to nibbana exists and I exist as adviser. But some of my disciples, on being exhorted and instructed thus by me attain the unchanging goal — nibbana, some do not attain it. What can I, brahman, do in this matter? A shower of the way, brahman, is a Tathagata."

Strangely, the Buddha didn't elaborate the whole path to nibbana in MN 107. Neither in MN 107 nor MN 48 is "this view" (insight knowledge) indicated or explained. Fortunately, the Buddha taught us the insight knowledge in the other suttas, so that we can still figure it out ...

Metta,

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Individual
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Re: The 2nd noble knowledge: how to practise?

Postby Individual » Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:44 am

The best things in life aren't things.


rowyourboat
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Re: The 2nd noble knowledge: how to practise?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:45 pm

Here's a little taster:

"And how does one dwell in heedfulness? When a monk dwells with restraint over the faculty of the eye, the mind is not stained with forms cognizable via the eye. When the mind is not stained, there is joy. There being joy, there is rapture. There being rapture, there is serenity. There being serenity, he dwells in ease. The mind of one at ease becomes centered. When the mind is centered, phenomena (dhammas) become manifest. When phenomena are manifest, one is classed simply as one who dwells in heedfulness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"And what does it mean to be consummate in discernment? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising and passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. This is called being consummate in discernment.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:namaste:
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

starter
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Re: The 2nd noble knowledge: how to practise?

Postby starter » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:32 am

Hello Teachers/Friends,

Just to share with you my new understanding of the 2nd noble knowledge, which is not only the path knowledge about how to practise, but also the attainment of "body witness" and "eye witness":

"2. Kāyasakkhīsuttaṃ -- Body Witness (link)

"Friend, it is said, 'body witness,' for what is it said body witness by The Blessed One?"

"Here, friend, the bhikkhu secluding the mind from sensual desires ... re ... abides in the first higher state of the mind. Whatever there is in that state of the mind, he abides experiencing them with the body. Friend, mastering this much, it is body witness," said The Blessed One.

[Body witness: witness the emptiness and stillness of the citta, which is kind of a taste of nibbana; the 1st jhana is probably the lowest level of such emptiness and stillness.]

4. Gāvī -- upamāsuttaṃ -- Comparable to a Cow (link)

Bhikkhus, when the bhikkhu abides in that attainment and rises from it his mind becomes gentle, workable, his concentration becomes immeasurable and well-developed. The well-developed and concentrated mind, he directs for the realization of knowledge and mindfulness in that mental sphere, becomes the eye-witness for the respective knowledge."

MN 95:

How to awake to the truth:

“... There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"; BB: scrutinizes -- insight meditation). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.

Here is my understanding as to how to awake to the truth :

Learning the true dhamma/reflective acceptance of the dhamma – Apply the teachings in one's practice – Examine the results of the efforts – Striving to practice in accordance with the teachings - Striving resolutely, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body in the 1st jhana (could be higher) and sees by penetrating it with wisdom [stream entry].

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Metta to all,

Starter
Last edited by starter on Mon May 02, 2011 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The 2nd noble knowledge: how to practise?

Postby cooran » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:47 am

Hello starter,

EXCERPT from The Four Noble Truths by Ajahn Sumedho

Now the Four Noble Truths are: there is suffering; there is a cause or origin of suffering; there is a end of suffering; and there is path out of suffering which is the Eightfold Path. Each of these Truths has three aspects so all together there are twelve insights. In the Theravada school, an arahant, a perfected one, is one who has seen clearly the Four Noble Truths with their three aspects and twelve insights. ‘Arahant’ means a human being who understands the truth; it is applied mainly to the teaching of the Four Noble Truths.
For the First Noble Truth, ‘There is suffering’ is the first insight. What is that insight? We don’t need to make it into anything grand; it is just the recognition: ‘There is suffering’. That is a basic insight. The ignorant person says, ‘I’m suffering. I don’t want to suffer. I meditate and I go on retreats to get out of suffering, but I’m still suffering and I don’t want to suffer.... How can I get out of suffering? What can I do to get rid of it?’ But that is not the First Noble Truth; it is not: ‘I am suffering and I want to end it.’ The insight is, ‘There is suffering’.
Now you are looking at the pain or the anguish you feel - not from the perspective of ‘It’s mine’ but as a reflection:
‘There is this suffering, this dukkha’. It is coming from the reflective position of ‘Buddha seeing the Dhamma.’ The insight is simply the acknowledgment that there is this suffering without making it personal. That acknowledgment is an important insight; just looking at mental anguish or physical pain and seeing it as dukkha rather than as personal misery - just seeing it as dukkha and not reacting to it in a habitual way.
The second insight of the First Noble Truth is:
‘Suffering should be understood.’
The second insight or aspect of each of the Noble Truths has the word ‘should’ in it: ‘It should be understood.’ The second insight then, is that dukkha is something to understand. One should understand dukkha, not just try to get rid of it.
We can look at the word ‘understanding’ as ‘standing under’. It is a common enough word but, in Pali, ‘understanding’ means to really accept the suffering, stand under or embrace it rather than just react to it. With any form of suffering - physical or mental - we usually just react, but with understanding we can really look at suffering; really accept it, really hold it and embrace it. So that is the second aspect, ‘We should understand suffering’.
The third aspect of the First Noble Truth is: ‘Suffering has been understood.’ When you have actually practised with suffering - looking at it, accepting it, knowing it and letting it be the way it is - then there is the third aspect, ‘Suffering has been understood’, or ‘Dukkha has been understood.’ So these are the three aspects of the First Noble Truth: ‘There is dukkha’; ‘It is to be understood’; and, ‘It has been understood.’

This is the pattern for the three aspects of each Noble Truth. There is the statement, then the prescription and then the result of having practised.
One can also see it in terms of the Pali words pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. Pariyatti is the theory or the statement, ‘There is suffering.’ Patipatti is the practice - actually practising with it; and pativedha is the result of the practice. This is what we call a reflective pattern; you are actually developing your mind in a very reflective way. A Buddha mind is a reflective mind that knows things as they are.
.......................
http://www.buddhanet.net/4noble.htm

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: The 2nd noble knowledge: how to practise?

Postby starter » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:17 pm

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the excerpt. I like the following explanation better:

"One can also see it in terms of the Pali words pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. Pariyatti is the theory or the statement, ‘There is suffering.’ Patipatti is the practice - actually practising with it; and pativedha is the result of the practice.

The 12 insights mentioned in the excerpt are the "eye-witness for the respective knowledge [4 noble truths]", i.e. "he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the [4 noble] truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment".

The 7 noble knowledges mentioned in MN 48 are the noble knowledges leading to sotapanna, which include all the 12 insights of the 4 noble truths to my understanding.

Metta to all,

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rowyourboat
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Re: The 2nd noble knowledge: how to practise?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:24 pm

I think people do underestimate the first noble truth. The Buddha said that everything that arises is suffering. Now that does mean EVERYTHING.


"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."

There is nothing which is impermanent, which is not dukkha.

"What do you think, monks — Is form constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

..and so on for all the aggregates (not just clinging aggregates). Without seeing this deep insight knowledge putajjanas consider moments of consciousness as 'useful' as 'pleasurable' as of 'value'. But there is nothing of value- it is only suffering that arises. When we see things as they really are letting go of the world, like a drop of spittle is nothing.

The Buddha said before and now, I teach only suffering and it's cessation. The cessation of suffering, the cessation of sankharas can never be reached, until suffering is fully seen and realised.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: The 2nd noble knowledge: how to practise?

Postby Kenshou » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:26 pm


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Re: The 2nd noble knowledge: how to practise?

Postby starter » Mon May 23, 2011 7:57 pm

"MN 95:

How to awake to the truth:

“... There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"; BB: scrutinizes -- insight meditation). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment."

Here is my understanding as to how to awake to the truth :

Learning the true dhamma/reflective acceptance of the dhamma – Apply the teachings in one's practice – Examine the results of the efforts – Striving to practice in accordance with the teachings - Striving resolutely, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body in the 1st jhana (could be higher) and sees by penetrating it with wisdom [stream entry]."

-- Hm ... just wonder what's the pali phrase for this sentence and what exactly the pali means:
"he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment."

Must a stream entrant be a "body witness" as well, or only "eye witness"? According to Ven. Bodhi's research, jhana isn't necessary for stream entry [In the Buddha's words lecture recording 10c].

Metta to all,

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rowyourboat
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Re: The 2nd noble knowledge: how to practise?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon May 23, 2011 10:09 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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