the great vegetarian debate

[Stewart]

Well how about this as an alternative?....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17113214

[JinpaRangdrol]

Well how about this as an alternative?....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17113214

Wow!!!!!
I'd eat it... Wonder what HH the Karmapa would say about using this meat for Tsog...

[Nemo]

[catmoon]

It seems to be standard procedure nowadays that if an inconvenient fact arises, well, just deny it. Call it a myth and get a zillion people on the internet to support you. However:

Wikipedia:"Hitler followed a vegetarian diet.[326] At social events he sometimes gave graphic accounts of the slaughter of animals in an effort to make his dinner guests shun meat.[327] A fear of cancer (from which his mother died)[328] is the most widely cited reason for Hitler's dietary habits. An antivivisectionist, Hitler may have followed his selective diet out of a profound concern for animals.[329] Martin Bormann had a greenhouse constructed near the Berghof (near Berchtesgaden) to ensure a steady supply of fresh fruit and vegetables for Hitler throughout the war. Hitler despised alcohol[330] and was a non-smoker. He promoted aggressive anti-smoking campaigns throughout Germany.[331] "

From The Medical Casebook of Adolf Hitler, by Leonard and Renate Heston:

What he did do about his illness was entirely in character: he treated himself. Gradually, he adopted an eccentric diet that was nearly vegetarian. Guided, no doubt, by the effects of particular foods on his pain, he eliminated rich pastries and meat and continued to eliminate foods until his basic diet was vegetables and cereal--a major change for a man who had a reputation as a lover of cakes and sweets. 'Even bread and butter gave him trouble. Zwieback, honey, mushrooms, curds, and yogurt became his standard diet.' At times, even milk products were eliminated and some vegetables, especially cabbage and beans, were also troublesome. Though occasionally he lapsed and would again try the rich foods he previously had enjoyed, Hitler generally followed a very stringent diet from the middle 1930s on.

In a 1938 magazine article published in the UK, Ignatius Phayre wrote:

A life-long vegetarian at table, Hitler's kitchen plots are both varied and heavy in produce. Even in his meatless diet Hitler is something of a gourmet--as Sir John Simon and Anthony Eden were surprised to note when they dined with him in the Presidential Palace at Berlin. His Bavarian chef, Herr Kannenberg, contrives an imposing array of vegetarian dishes, savoury and rich, pleasing to the eye as well as to the palate, and all conforming to the diatetic standards which Hitler exacts.

Boria Sax has some interesting things to say in her book "Animals In The Third Reich: Pets, Scapegoats, and the Holocaust"

'Hitler was a vegetarian, probably in emulation of the composer Richard Wagner,' Boria Sax asserts, but claims, as vegetarian historian Rynn Berry and others have documented, that 'Hitler was probably not entirely consistent in his vegetarianism.'

Adds Sax, 'Several leading figures in the [Nazi] government followed Hilter's example, including [Rudolph] Hess and [Joseph] Goebbels; Heinrich Himmler, who was influenced by Buddhism, even mandated vegetarian meals for leaders of the SS. It is true that the Nazi leaders never tried to promote vegetarianism beyond the ruling circles,' Sax allows. 'An entry in Goebbels' diary dated April 26, 1942 stated that this omission was dictated by necessity. According to Goebbels, Hitler was more deeply convinced than ever that eating meat was wrong, but Hitler could not revolutionize food production while the war was in progress.'

YIKES influenced by Buddhism? My that is an inconvenient fact, but I'm not going to deny it, nor am I going to deny the Holocaust, Global Warming or the radically anti feminist attitudes of most of my ancestors. Hitler's vegetarianism is hugely documented, by friends, enemies and neutral parties, by contemporaries and later historians, and attempting to deny it is just an indulgence in self righteousness.

[Nighthawk]

Just had a couple double cheeseburgers and I really feel like killing someone right now.... watch out!

[tomamundsen]

It seems to be standard procedure nowadays that if an inconvenient fact arises, well, just deny it. Call it a myth and get a zillion people on the internet to support you.

Hey brother. I'm sorry if I stepped on a nerve or something. I honestly wasn't trying to "deny an inconvenient fact." I basically just Googled "hilter vegetarian," found the Wiki page, and then read this section - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitl ... etarianism - a folly to state as fact information sourced from Wikipedia, I suppose.

Gradually, he adopted an eccentric diet that was nearly vegetarian.

This is the point. The evidence to the contrary says that he did in fact reduce meat consumption, but wasn't completely vegetarian. And then his diet change was exaggerated as propaganda for various reasons.

YIKES influenced by Buddhism? My that is an inconvenient fact, but I'm not going to deny it, nor am I going to deny the Holocaust, Global Warming or the radically anti feminist attitudes of most of my ancestors. Hitler's vegetarianism is hugely documented, by friends, enemies and neutral parties, by contemporaries and later historians, and attempting to deny it is just an indulgence in self righteousness.

Yea, again, I don't have any need to deny someone like Hitler being a vegetarian. I know a few vegans who are possibly more evil than Hitler. I mean, I do live in LA.

[David N. Snyder]

There seems to be some evidence out there that Hitler was vegetarian or near vegetarian and about an equal amount of other evidence that he was not vegetarian and preferred meat.

In any event, it doesn't matter, because all such arguments are association fallacies. There are plenty of murderers who eat meat, but that doesn't mean that all meat eaters are murderers. There are plenty of murderers who are vegetarian, but that doesn't meant that all vegetarians are murderers. Such arguments are meant to divert attention away from the real issues by association with someone evil. That is why those arguments are considered logical fallacies.

[edearl]

Do you mean Campbell's book on it or the actual study. In the actual China Study participants heart disease was inversely related to meat intake. Those who ate the least meat, who were most likely the poorest of peasants, had more heart disease.

Some correlations in the study between food intakes and heart disease;

Plant protein has a correlation of 0.21 with heart disease (positive)
Non-fish animal protein has a correlation of 0.01 with heart disease (neutral)
Fish protein has a correlation of -0.11 with heart disease (inverse)
Meat intake has a correlation of -0.28 with heart disease (strongly inverse)
Fish intake has a correlation of -0.15 with heart disease (inverse)
Egg intake has a correlation of -0.13 with heart disease (inverse)
Wheat has a correlation of 0.67 with heart disease(The highest correlation of all.)

The study is only correlations. There is a correlation between ice cream intake and sunburns. Does ice cream cause sunburns?

Every piece of science used in the movie is so misleading and presented so inaccuratley as to be fraudulent. It's slickly produced propaganda. So far the correlations of health befits from a veggie diet are negligible. You'll have to find another better reason to give up eating animals.

I do not have a copy of the book, and cannot comment about your interpretation. However, my health has significantly improved since becoming vegan only 3 months ago, including my cholesterol, triglycerides, blood pressure, eye sight, neuropathy, and chronic neuropathic pain.

[IshNavaya]

I have always detested meat, but I grew up with the age-old adage that children must eat what they're given because "kids are starving in Africa." I loved wheat products, though, and juice, but they always made me throw up. In my teens, I refused to eat meat of any kind unless I was actually so hungry I couldn't stand not to eat something. I was one of those weird kids who ate all my veggies and was told to finish my meat. Needless to say, my relationship to food was rocky. For a long time, I hated it because my reactions were so strong.

I have spoken to my root teacher about diet extensively, and he told me that he had the same problem in his youth. He suggested that I pay close attention to the signals of my body and that he had to really work to overcome his aversion to eating things because they were once alive. He theorized that it was a kind of manifestation of residual memory from a past life.

As I study the lam rim, I have come to regard food with near indifference, which is a huge improvement to hatred and disgust. Because I was curious, I asked my family doc about it, and they ran a few tests. It amazed me to find that I have an enzyme deficiency because my pancreas does not produce the proper enzymes for my body to break down wheat and possibly other proteins.

I could take medicine and eat the meat at this point if necessary for my survival or health, but I have chosen to be vegetarian and gluten free because it is cheaper and more convenient. Taking a pill just to eat things I didn't necessarily care for anyway seemed pointless. Rice, veggies, and fruits are relatively inexpensive and require little preparation, as I usually consume the veggies raw, but every now and again I sauté or steam them if I get a little bored... I eat because it is necessary. Some people might think the diet boring, but it suits me. When I do eat out, I order sides of veggies and rice or a baked potato. Then I drink a protein drink when I get home.

This way of eating is truly beneficial for me. My thoughts are clearer and my energy has improved exponentially. However, what works for me may not work for others. Every path is different.

I work to dispell my aversion to meat, as I often cannot even bear the smell of it cooking. This emotion of dislike is informative, certainly, but it creates negativity within me. I have gotten to the point where I can smell the meat cooking without becoming I'll, but I still have serious problems preparing meat for my carnivorous friends and family, so they eat veggies and skittles when they come to my house.

I know I need to overcome this, but it is really difficult. The idea of touching, cooking, or even interacting with dead flesh is repugnant. Any suggestions on how to mentally alter my responses about this? If it is necessary, I should be able to prepare and even consume meat to survive, and I'd rather not be sick at the thought.

Because we are lucky enough to live in a society where we can be picky eaters, any diet that suffices and gives one enough energy to accomplish his or her spiritual goals is, in my opinion, acceptable. However, using dogma to either justify or forbid meat consumption seems to miss the point. Maybe the debate is akin to the argument of how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin. It's not about the angels or the pin because the real issue concerns understanding your personal intent and perceptions.

So, I'm going to stop rambling now. Thank you for reading them, if you finished this. Have a peaceful day.

[Nemo]

Do you mean Campbell's book on it or the actual study. In the actual China Study participants heart disease was inversely related to meat intake. Those who ate the least meat, who were most likely the poorest of peasants, had more heart disease.

Some correlations in the study between food intakes and heart disease;

Plant protein has a correlation of 0.21 with heart disease (positive)
Non-fish animal protein has a correlation of 0.01 with heart disease (neutral)
Fish protein has a correlation of -0.11 with heart disease (inverse)
Meat intake has a correlation of -0.28 with heart disease (strongly inverse)
Fish intake has a correlation of -0.15 with heart disease (inverse)
Egg intake has a correlation of -0.13 with heart disease (inverse)
Wheat has a correlation of 0.67 with heart disease(The highest correlation of all.)

The study is only correlations. There is a correlation between ice cream intake and sunburns. Does ice cream cause sunburns?

Every piece of science used in the movie is so misleading and presented so inaccuratley as to be fraudulent. It's slickly produced propaganda. So far the correlations of health befits from a veggie diet are negligible. You'll have to find another better reason to give up eating animals.

I do not have a copy of the book, and cannot comment about your interpretation. However, my health has significantly improved since becoming vegan only 3 months ago, including my cholesterol, triglycerides, blood pressure, eye sight, neuropathy, and chronic neuropathic pain.

I think that is the best thing to go on. What works for you, keep doing that. IshNavaya gets sick if he eats grains, you are adapted to an agricultural diet. I thrive on what my Nordic ancestors ate. Once the mechanisms of our particular physiology are understood you can start breaking out of the bubble of genetic predetermination. My body is weak at converting essential amino acids into other more complex ones in sufficient quantities to meet my physical requirements. So I supplement with those amino compounds and can save a few animals without damaging my health.

We know very little. Dr. Campbell and people who say things like Hitler was not a "real" vegetarian are zealots. They have no wish for facts or unbiased inquiry. Campbell uses 45 year old studies that did not even support his theories under closer examination. Hitler called himself a vegetarian. I don't care if he cheated once and ate a schnitzel. By those standards I only know a single vegetarian. He is a Brahmin from Sri Lanka who has never eaten meat since birth. Everyone else is just a meat eater putting on airs.

Without critical inquiry we will not learn more. Considering we do not even understand blood types* we cannot regress into dogma. Don't let yourself be indoctrinated by shysters like Campbell even if they have cool movies. I know how it happens. I was a veggie back in the 80's and looked like a chemo patient after a few years. By negating your own intuition and elevating opinions to coveted beliefs and using the pseudonym "science" for these beliefs you can quickly destroy your health and longevity. You also become a terrible advert for your cause. There were so many unhealthy looking vegans back then. They looked one flu away from the hospital.

*New blood types discovered;
http://www.sciencecodex.com/blood_mystery_solved-86712

[gregkavarnos]

A few days ago I watched a 15 minute excerpt of the following documentary, it took me over a day of practice to get the images out of my head.

A multi-award winning animal rights film entitled "Earthlings - Animal Justice" narrated by Joaquin Phoenix.

Be warned, some of the scenes (all of which are real) are truly horrific.

[Wesley1982]

I generally eat whatever is prepared for me. (could be exotic island food or ordinary hamburger)

[Francie]

Ok, so it posted 3 times. Not sure how that happened

[Francie]

Can I join the party here?

I've been a vegetarian since I was 12.

This was done purely because at some point I realized, this is a corpse I'm eating. To me it became no different to the thought of cannibalism; an animal corpse is an animal corpse.

I try not to claim moral superiority, because honestly, though I also hate the conditions in factory farms and have ethical beliefs that counteract meat eating, it is still a very personal decision.

So as long as people don't get at me about being veggie, I don't rant at the meat-eaters about eating meat. However, if they are like some members of my family and hate that I don't share the same meat-n-potatoes diet as they do, then sure, I'll engage in a little friendly debate

One thing that does annoy me though is when people who used to be vegetarian (and stopped because they found their health was impaired) think that it was vegetarianism that caused their health to decline.

Just like you can have healthy and unhealthy carnivorous diets, you can have healthy and unhealthy vegetarian diets.

[Nighthawk]

A few days ago I watched a 15 minute excerpt of the following documentary, it took me over a day of practice to get the images out of my head.

A multi-award winning animal rights film entitled "Earthlings - Animal Justice" narrated by Joaquin Phoenix.

Be warned, some of the scenes (all of which are real) are truly horrific.

I find that after watching these types of videos, I refrain from eating for about three days max then go back to same habit of meat eating as before watching it. Not really a permanent solution, but then again I have no intention currently to become a vegetarian.

[seeker242]

Lianchi Zhuhung |Yun-ch'i Chu-hung (1535-1615)

Master Chu-hung, the Eighth Pureland Patriarch, also known as Yün-ch'i, Lien-ch'ih or Yafu Dosen (along with Han-shan Te-ch'ing and Tzu-po Chenk-k'o), says:

On Stopping Killing
By
Lianchi Zhuhung | Yun-ch'i Chu-hung
(1535 - 1615)
Translation by Bhikshu Heng Sure in collaboration with The Buddhist Text Translation Society © 1991

People who eat meat often make the excuse that it is natural to do so, that people were meant to eat
meat. They promote this idea, and then freely indulge in taking the lives of their fellow creatures,
thereby creating extensive hatred and enmity-karma. Over time, as their killing and consuming
becomes a habit, meat eaters no longer feel their killing is unusual. They do their evil deeds
unknowingly, unaware of the consequences of slaughter and the resentment it evokes.

As somebody in the past said, "It is a cause for tears and sobbing, for wails and cries, for deep regrets,
and mournful cries." In order to recount our confusion and point out our attachments, I have
formulated seven categories, and will explain them below. Any other points to be discussed can be
investigated in similar fashion. To begin with, all creatures with awareness share just one identical
body. When we humans eat the flesh of our fellow creatures, we are doing a bizarre and abnormal act.
Yet we don't feel it is strange, because the whole family takes part, and for generation after generation,
killing and eating meat becomes a custom. Our neighbours in the local villages copy one another, and
repetition makes the practice seem normal. Over time we lose sensitivity to the wrongness of killing.
We think instead, that it is right to kill animals for the good flavour their bodies provide. Our desire for
taste dominates our sensibilities, and we no longer feel that eating dead flesh is strange or grossly
savage.

Consider, if you will, our response if someone were to kill and eat the body of a human! Surely
everyone would reckon it a monstrous act, frightening, and taboo. We would be anxious to execute the
culprit as a murderous criminal. Why? Only because eating human meat is very much not a part of our
conventional habits. But eating the flesh of animals' bodies has become a habit the world over, so that
we no longer feel that killing these creatures is wrong. In fact, "it is a cause for tears and sobbing, for
wails and cries, for deep regrets, and mournful cries."

http://www.shabkar.org/download/pdf/On_ ... huhung.pdf

[seeker242]

Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo "I don't eat my friends"

Good videos.

[practitioner]

Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo "I don't eat my friends"

Good videos.

Not good videos, GREAT videos. Videos like this are infinitely more effective than any slaughterhouse video because instead of simply shocking you, all justifications for consuming slaughtered animals are broken down.

[gregkavarnos]

Not good videos, GREAT videos. Videos like this are infinitely more effective than any slaughterhouse video because instead of simply shocking you, all justifications for consuming slaughtered animals are broken down.

Let's see if I can get your logic straight, watching a scene from a slaughter house: seeing the animals terror and suffering, witnessing the conditions it lives and dies under, seeing it being sliced open, etc... while essentially still alive is not enough of a justification to stop eating meat?

You need something more?

[practitioner]

No I don't need more, I'm vegetarian and being so comes with many benefits. My response was more in line with addressing this kind of response.

I find that after watching these types of videos, I refrain from eating for about three days max then go back to same habit of meat eating as before watching it. Not really a permanent solution, but then again I have no intention currently to become a vegetarian.

For me, my decision to become vegetarian was because of a deep-down conviction that I want to do everything in my power to avoid the killing of any sentient beings. And because of that conviction I was able to go from a medium-rare filet mignon lover to a complete vegetarian overnight without ever looking back or ever craving meat since then. For me, the reason that was possible was because taking refuge involves accepting that I would never again intentionally kill a sentient being. And saying "i won't swat a mosquito" because that would be killing a sentient being, but then eating a steak because "I didn't personally kill the cow" was completely unacceptable to me, and that was one of the points that Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo made in those videos.

However, I think the most important point is that eating meat should be unacceptable from a Buddhist perspective and whatever it takes for anyone to reach that conclusion is fine by me. Whether that is lectures on ethics or videos of animal cruelty, the point is the fewer animals that are killed for food, the better and I'm pretty sure that we both agree on that point.