How do we know?

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How do we know?

Postby m0rl0ck » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:24 am

If everything is void of own-being, how do we know?

As in the process of knowing ourselves and the world.

I guess the question im asking here is: How is the knowing empty?
Ride the horse in the direction its going.

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Re: How do we know?

Postby Heruka » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:24 am

hands down, the best introspective, multifaceted question i have ever seen asked on the web.

how did the void become self aware?

how did duality split consciousness, it stir and move and ask, is this me, or am i that over there?
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Re: How do we know?

Postby Huifeng » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:03 am

m0rl0ck wrote:If everything is void of own-being, how do we know?

As in the process of knowing ourselves and the world.

I guess the question im asking here is: How is the knowing empty?


"empty" in this context, means "empty of permanence, durability, substantiality".

This can be seen in that phenomena, including the act of knowing phenomena, are impermanent, and change due to conditions.
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Re: How do we know?

Postby muni » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:09 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:If everything is void of own-being, how do we know?

As in the process of knowing ourselves and the world.

I guess the question im asking here is: How is the knowing empty?


Maybe to be aware of a thought is having no separate existence of empty nature, empty cognizance, then no owner can be as thought is empty knowing itself. Then no me can arise or must subside.

Duality isn't.
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Re: How do we know?

Postby catmoon » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:16 am

We know that sense impressions exist because we are immersed in them constantly. But that wasn't really what you were asking was it?
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
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Re: How do we know?

Postby muni » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:33 am

Heruka wrote:

how did the void become self aware?

how did duality split consciousness, it stir and move and ask, is this me, or am i that over there?


Primordial knowing?

Dividing concepts, object-subject.
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Re: How do we know?

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:16 am

muni wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:If everything is void of own-being, how do we know?

As in the process of knowing ourselves and the world.

I guess the question im asking here is: How is the knowing empty?


Maybe to be aware of a thought is having no separate existence of empty nature, empty cognizance, then no owner can be as thought is empty knowing itself. Then no me can arise or must subside.

Duality isn't.


So thought and awareness are emptyness knowing itself?

If i am getting what you are saying, i dont see how it helps much.
To put the thing another way, empty me walks out and sees an empty tree.
Even if im totally enlightened, have seen thru the veils that stand between "me"and reality, im still me and still see the tree and the tree exists as an object of awareness. How and where did the awareness arise? If awareness were a thot construct it would be seen thru and dissapear, would it not? If that were the case tho people would wink out of existenence at the moment of enlightenment :tongue: so thats got to be wrong. So if all is empty, why isnt awareness? Is awarenes a quality of prajna? A fundemental property so to speak? Does awareness need an object? If it werent dependent on an object, that would explain its ever present quality, but then it wouldnt be empty.

EDIT: i think i gave myself a headache, im going to go lie down now.
Last edited by m0rl0ck on Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do we know?

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:18 am

Huifeng wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:If everything is void of own-being, how do we know?

As in the process of knowing ourselves and the world.

I guess the question im asking here is: How is the knowing empty?


"empty" in this context, means "empty of permanence, durability, substantiality".

This can be seen in that phenomena, including the act of knowing phenomena, are impermanent, and change due to conditions.


How is it that awareness seems ever present then? is it a quality of prajna?
Ride the horse in the direction its going.

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Re: How do we know?

Postby muni » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:50 am

m0rl0ck wrote:
muni wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:If everything is void of own-being, how do we know?

As in the process of knowing ourselves and the world.

I guess the question im asking here is: How is the knowing empty?


Maybe to be aware of a thought is having no separate existence of empty nature, empty cognizance, then no owner can be as thought is empty knowing itself. Then no me can arise or must subside.

Duality isn't.


So thought and awareness are emptyness knowing itself?

If i am getting what you are saying, i dont see how it helps much.
To put the thing another way, empty me walks out and sees an empty tree.
Even if im totally enlightened, have seen thru the veils that stand between "me"and reality, im still me and still see the tree and the tree exists as an object of awareness. How and where did the awareness arise? If awareness were a thot construct it would be seen thru and dissapear, would it not? If that were the case tho people would wink out of existenence at the moment of enlightenment :tongue: so thats got to be wrong. So if all is empty, why isnt awareness? Is awarenes a quality of prajna? A fundemental property so to speak? Does awareness need an object? If it werent dependent on an object, that would explain its ever present quality, but then it wouldnt be empty.

EDIT: i think i gave myself a headache, im going to go lie down now.


Thought is taking form in the empty cognizance like a wave of the sea takes form from the sea. When we chase behind thought, solidify it and by that take ownership of it, mind is settled in delusion.

Where is that empty me that sees a empty tree?
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Re: How do we know?

Postby Astus » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:20 am

Awareness is not ever present. Consciousness depends on what it is conscious of. So the Buddha categorised consciousness into six major forms. And the sixth can be examined according to the four aggregates of the name group. But if you look up what the manifold dharmas are in the Abhidharma texts you find that awareness is very far from being always there, more like momentary. And there are even beings in a heavenly realm without consciousness. See SN 12.61 discussing why it is a great mistake to identify oneself with the mind as if it were permanent while on the contrary it changes rapidly. Therefore it is empty.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: How do we know?

Postby m0rl0ck » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:49 am

Astus wrote:Awareness is not ever present. Consciousness depends on what it is conscious of. But if you look up what the manifold dharmas are in the Abhidharma texts you find that awareness is very far from being always there, more like momentary.


You are right, sleep and unconsciousness :) no awareness there. And as far as awareness being momentary, i agree that at some levels of perception it seems grainy, like pixels in a photograph. But what is the paper that those pixels are printed on? How is that empty?

To quote something you quoted from another thread: "What knows being and nonbeing, center and extremes, inside and outside, is mind. This mind is empty yet perceptive, silent yet aware. Round and bright, perfectly clear, it does not fall into ideas of annihilation or eternity. Spiritual awareness radiantly bright, its discrimination is not false." (Foxin Bencai, tr. by T. Cleary)"

How is that empty? What does it depend on?
Ride the horse in the direction its going.

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Re: How do we know?

Postby muni » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:21 am

Interdependency or interbeing. Found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYhti6fc ... re=related
While listening and looking to this images, those appear in mind. Where is mind?

:namaste: Happy relax interbeing.
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Re: How do we know?

Postby Astus » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:48 am

m0rl0ck,

Without concepts there is nothing conditioned and nothing to condition, so it is called the unconditioned, which is emptiness. An empty mind is no-mind (wunian/munen).
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: How do we know?

Postby 5heaps » Wed May 12, 2010 5:27 am

m0rl0ck wrote:If everything is void of own-being, how do we know?

As in the process of knowing ourselves and the world.

I guess the question im asking here is: How is the knowing empty?

voidness refers to the absence of things existing in impossible ways. in other words it's not that things dont exist, but rather how they exist that is the question.
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Re: How do we know?

Postby White Lotus » Wed May 12, 2010 4:24 pm

:namaste: Noble Friends,

If everything is void of own-being, how do we know?

As in the process of knowing ourselves and the world.

I guess the question im asking here is: How is the knowing empty?


beautiful question.

everything is void of own-being, one must see the void within oneself to know the void outside oneself, so that inside and outside are one... empty. form is emptiness, emptiness is form. you can see this for yourself, it is so simple that people miss it. until you see the void within, it is i would say impossible to see that all forms are empty. so... seeing the emptiness of your own nature leads to seeing the emptiness of all things. it is one taste. one flavour. all is empty... not even emptiness.

the knowing is empty, and the knower is empty. there is no arising of knowledge, nor arising nor ceasing of knower. just emptiness. there is not even emptiness, there is not even no thing... and yet you can see it and taste it.... the void of mind. why call it such a fancy name as the void. just look inside yourself right now and feel this normal 'me'. you will see it. emptiness is not some special feeling. it is this me. just as i feel it right now. and you will see that it is empty.

without tasting, conceptually it is possible to say...
An empty mind is no-mind (wunian/munen).

this is fine, but actually there is no mind at all anywhere, it is only called mind. infact it is also called emptiness, self nature and form, but ultimately it is "________"
there is no mind anywhere and there never has been. nor has there ever been a true nature. taste the emptiness within you. it does not taste like emptiness.

no mind is where mind and body have been seen and are seen to be empty. it is where you see that there is no mind to think. therefore how could there be any conceptualizing. concepts are empty. there are no concepts and there never have been. Hui Neng conceptualized with no mind, because he had no mind at all he could say that he was beyond concepts. having no mind at all is seeing that you have no mind... tasting mind, seeing that it is just this normal emptiness.

all im talking about is emptiness which is not even emptiness, nor is it nothingness. it is not. and yet you can still taste it within yourself. its a normal feeling youve had all your life. you just dont see it because it is so normal.

love, White Lotus. x

simple just ask...
what do i feel like when i am meditating, or sitting at the computer. what is this me? i feel it all the time. or ask... how does the computer feel? try it. then again ask how do i feel? is there a difference?
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: How do we know?

Postby Will » Wed May 12, 2010 6:56 pm

These translations of Nagarjuna are very helpful in understanding what sunyata means. It is not a "void" - it is void-ness. It is the character or nature or manner of all - consciousness, objects; all dharmas.

Chandrakirti's comments on the 60 Stanzas of Nagarjuna bodhisattva clarified much.

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/nagarjuna.pdf
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: How do we know?

Postby Dexing » Thu May 13, 2010 3:00 am

m0rl0ck wrote:If everything is void of own-being, how do we know?

As in the process of knowing ourselves and the world.

I guess the question im asking here is: How is the knowing empty?


This world is illusory, created by mind. But since all is illusory, nothing is in fact produced or extinguished. Since there is no object, there can be no subject. No "I, my, me".

Nonetheless, there is just seeing, just hearing, etc..

Don't make anything, and there is no problem. Make something and attach to it, then you have a big problem. So put it down, then just see, just hear, just help others.

:namaste:
nopalabhyate...
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Re: How do we know?

Postby White Lotus » Thu May 13, 2010 4:50 pm

Don't make anything, and there is no problem. Make something and attach to it, then you have a big problem. So put it down, then just see, just hear, just help others.


:good:

the following is beautiful:
It is not a "void" - it is void-ness. It is the character or nature or manner of all - consciousness, objects; all dharmas.


it is not empty, it is empty-ness, were it empty, it would still be something and subject to change. there is not a thing in it at all and it is not a thing to be named, nor is there not a thing in it, and not a name that does not express it. the name emptiness though often helpful, needs to be dropped from time to time. using the term void may be helpful, but that too is not as clear as direct experience of what 'this' is, just so. (form/emptyness)

actually rather than calling it emptiness or voidness, you could just ask yourself what 'this' feels like... if you can feel 'this', you can feel emptyness.

best wishes, White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: How do we know?

Postby m0rl0ck » Thu May 13, 2010 5:01 pm

Dexing wrote:
Don't make anything, and there is no problem. Make something and attach to it, then you have a big problem. So put it down, then just see, just hear, just help others.

:namaste:


:bow:
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Re: How do we know?

Postby White Lotus » Fri May 14, 2010 3:38 pm

:namaste:
It is not a "void" - it is void-ness


on examination, it is not a void, nor is it nothing... it is 'this'. everything is 'this'.
mind is this, own nature is this, subject and object are merged as one in 'this'.

master keizan said "between life and death there is only 'this'." i agree with him.
sound is 'this', form is this, emptiness is 'this'.

initially one thinks that one has emptiness, actually on examination it is not emptiness, nor is it a void. it has the feeling of 'this'ness.

i know a guy called Master Best, and have argued with him over the issue of emptiness, he has always asserted that there is no emptiness. i had disagreed, now i know that there is only 'this'. this may sometimes seem like voidness, but it is not.

try to feel thisness within you and around you... its easy, and more direct/accurate than trying to sense emptiness, since emptiness is contained in 'this'.

best wishes, White Lotus.

seen, heard, tasted, touched.
just enjoy an ice cream...
this is it.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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