Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sönam » Sat May 28, 2011 10:19 am

Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote:In french I use "savoir total" (total knowledge). Adding "total" to knowledge would desintelectualize knowledge ...

Sönam


But there is no "total" in rig pa. And I don't think you can "deintellectualize" words. By adding total you just make a new concept.


for sure, but just using a word is already a concept ... so there is no perfect solution ... and in the (imperfect) solution I propose, total does not refere to rigpa, but to knowledge, which makes knowledge a bit different than usual, not a knowlegde accessible via intellect.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1987
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 28, 2011 2:05 pm

Pero wrote:
Is there any particular reason for that?


Gnosis is probably a better word, but out of habit I use wisdom.

But both are just placeholder terms to some extent.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12241
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Pero » Sat May 28, 2011 9:03 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Pero wrote:
Is there any particular reason for that?


Gnosis is probably a better word, but out of habit I use wisdom.

But both are just placeholder terms to some extent.


But gnosis is Greek for knowledge... :smile:


Sönam wrote:for sure, but just using a word is already a concept ... so there is no perfect solution ... and in the (imperfect) solution I propose, total does not refere to rigpa, but to knowledge, which makes knowledge a bit different than usual, not a knowlegde accessible via intellect.

And then you still have to explain it. In Tibetan rig pa doesn't mean just what it means in Dzogchen too, it's not a term exclusive to Dzogchen, so I don't think we have to come up with something exclusive either.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sönam » Sun May 29, 2011 8:37 am

Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote:for sure, but just using a word is already a concept ... so there is no perfect solution ... and in the (imperfect) solution I propose, total does not refere to rigpa, but to knowledge, which makes knowledge a bit different than usual, not a knowlegde accessible via intellect.

And then you still have to explain it. In Tibetan rig pa doesn't mean just what it means in Dzogchen too, it's not a term exclusive to Dzogchen, so I don't think we have to come up with something exclusive either.


But then what ever term you choose you would have to explain ? but ... and then in a foot note I equal it to rig pa ... because anyway it's the best labelization. Anyway, readers generally know what (at least theoretically) we are talking about.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1987
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby alpha » Sun May 29, 2011 11:30 am

In the teachings "to recognise your own face" or to "recognise the nature of mind" is used very often.

The English dictionary describes, explains that "to recognise" means 1.to know what a thing is or who someone is and 2.to acknowledge that something exists and it is true and 3.acknowledging something as valid leads to acceptance and approval.

According to the first definition one would understand that in order for the recognition to take place there must have been a prior acquaintance with that person or that situation or thing...
In the context of the teachings how can this be the case when you have never encountered or seen your nature ?

I honestly dont know what is the sense used in the teachings.

But cheking a different dictionary for synonyms i may come a little closer to elucidate the meaning of "to recognize the nature of your mind"
Here they split it in two categories 1.to identify and 2.to confess.
I am only concerned here with the first category where we find to know , to remember,to spot,to place,to see,to notice...

For me the expression "to recognise the nature of your mind " makes sense only if i can replace it with certain synonyms under the "Identify " category....And following from this ,i.e. to identify the nature of your mind would not necesarily require a prior experience,knowledge of your nature but the identification could follow merely from the oral exposition of the teaching.

Therefore in your daily practice you would come to 'identify" this or that based on what you were instructed.


What do you think?
AOM
alpha
 
Posts: 578
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm
Location: kent

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Merely Labeled » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:29 am

I did not check the topic for a few days.
It took an interesting turn :smile:

Hayagriva, thank you for the article on lung. I`ll read it.

You wrote:
``When learning Dzogchen meditation there is a specific meditation fault that possible, which is fear.``

Yes, definitely.

Isn`t it so, that the ego conjures up all kinds of dramas before being annihilated ?

So, I would not speak of fear as a fault but as being a part of the many stages on the path.

:?:

M.L.
Merely Labeled
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:02 am

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Paul » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:45 am

Merely Labeled wrote:Hayagriva, thank you for the article on lung. I`ll read it.


Tsoknyi Rinpoche's teachings on lung are very, very useful and he's one of the few teachers out there who teach on it. I think it's very important for most western students.

You wrote:
``When learning Dzogchen meditation there is a specific meditation fault that possible, which is fear.``

Yes, definitely.

Isn`t it so, that the ego conjures up all kinds of dramas before being annihilated ?

So, I would not speak of fear as a fault but as being a part of the many stages on the path.

:?:

M.L.


It's a fault because it means you've not completely cut through the mind, so it freaks out. If you cut through completely, there is no basis at all for fear. Mistakes like this are most definitely part of the path.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
User avatar
Paul
 
Posts: 826
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:08 am

Fa Dao wrote:Heres a thought from a "newbie"...perhaps there just does not exist one single word in the English language that can adequately describe Rigpa? Perhaps translators need to find a combination or hyphenated word to get the idea across? or maybe even a short sentence? I have a short acronym I made up:
R-resting
I-in
G gnosis of
P-Presence and
A-Awareness
I am probably way off base but it seems to work for me...LOL


Haha perfect. :twothumbsup:

It seems that Gnosis, in its most elevated meaning (i.e the meaning referred to within Occult traditions, as opposed to the common meaning), encompasses Yeshe (Jnana), Rigpa (Vidya), and Sherab (Prajna); so Gnosis may not necessarily be the best translation of Rigpa, although it works if understood in context.

Also, related to Vidya and Avidya, and Paravidya and Aparavidya:

Mahavidya (Rigpa-Chenmo) (interestingly, Mahavidya is the name of the Ten Tantric Shakti Deities: Kali, Tara (Neel Saraswati), Lalita-Tripurasundari (Shodashi, Parvati), Bhuvaneshvari, Bhairavi, Chhinnamasta (Chinnamunda), Dhumavati, Bagalamukhi, Matangi (Saraswati), and Kamala (Lakshmi)).

Has anyone here studied any of the Dravidian Tantric traditions?

Anyway... :focus:

I was going to post questions about rTsa, rTsal, and the Fruition of Trekchö here, however I'll start a new thread.
User avatar
Lhug-Pa
 
Posts: 1428
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Dronma » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:01 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:It seems that Gnosis, in its most elevated meaning (i.e the meaning referred to within Occult traditions, as opposed to the common meaning), encompasses Yeshe (Jnana), Rigpa (Vidya), and Sherab (Prajna); so Gnosis may not necessarily be the best translation of Rigpa, although it works if understood in context.



No, Gnosis has nothing to do with Rigpa, Jnana or Prajna!
Gnosis is knowledge. Knowledge which we can get through schools, universities, books and generally studies and experiences by using our mind.
Sophia is the Greek term for Wisdom. Hence Philosophy (Philosophia), Theosophy (Theosophia) etc.
Occult traditions have mixed up words-notions from different traditions-religions without even knowing the accurate meaning.... :tantrum:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
User avatar
Dronma
 
Posts: 715
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:29 pm
Location: Athens - GR

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:23 am

Tashi delek,

In addition to Ma Rigpa's question:

Natural State would be: gnas lugs.
The real / gnas, abiding mode / lugs, of the mind, the unconditioned true base of the individual.

As far as i know is Rigpa sometimes explained as Awareness and sometimes as knowing ones State.

As far i understood my teachings:
Knowing ones State could here be seen as dualistic whereas to be in that Natural State as aware of it witout dualisms like in object and subject.


Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
User avatar
kalden yungdrung
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:26 pm

Tashi delek,

Awareness is a term used in Bon Dzogchen and often by Yongdzin Rinpoche.
So i cannot imagen myself that Rigpa = Awareness would be a wrong translation.

When i am right informed would Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche have had some teachings from our Yongdzin Rinpoche, no doubt that Rigpa would be used many times in the sense of awareness........

There must be sure, a certain reason that Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche makes no more use anymore of the word awareness.
Does NNR know that awareness is used as general translation for Rigpa in Bon?



Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
User avatar
kalden yungdrung
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:39 pm

Paul wrote:... The other is that negative karma can arise in a Dzogchen retreat.
Since negative karma can ripen at any point in time, given the correct causes and conditions, it is also quite likely that the bodily effect is not caused by (or has any link with) the Dzogchen practice at all.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9804
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Dronma » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:31 pm

Image

:applause:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
User avatar
Dronma
 
Posts: 715
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:29 pm
Location: Athens - GR

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:42 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:

When i am right informed would Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche have had some teachings from our Yongdzin Rinpoche, no doubt that Rigpa would be used many times in the sense of awareness........

KY


Whatever teachings ChNN received from LTN, it is certain they were in Tibetan and not English.

In the end, it does not matter what word you use. If you want to called Rigpa "George" it is also ok, as long as people understand what the word "George" is a symbol for. But if you examine the the range of meanings the word rig pa has in Dzogchen texts, you quickly come to the conclusion it is inappropriate to crib "rig pa" with a single English word. Hence it is better to leave it in Tibetan or backtranslate it into Sanskrit -- hence vidyā.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12241
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby mzaur » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:52 am

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:[color=#0080FF]Tashi delek, :)

Yes the term Rigpa, is a very difficult word to translate, sure when it is related to awareness.
Also is it clear that Rigpa could also be inteligence, that was also one of my earlier suggestion.


In my opinion, translating rigpa as "awareness" is simply wrong. Intelligence is also not good, again IMO.

In this case, knowledge is best. Why? Because rigpa is opposite to ma rig pa. Knowledge is the opposite of ignorance.

N


Could you please explain then how "rest in rigpa" makes sense? How do you rest in knowledge?
User avatar
mzaur
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:18 am

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:03 am

mzaur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:[color=#0080FF]Tashi delek, :)

Yes the term Rigpa, is a very difficult word to translate, sure when it is related to awareness.
Also is it clear that Rigpa could also be inteligence, that was also one of my earlier suggestion.


In my opinion, translating rigpa as "awareness" is simply wrong. Intelligence is also not good, again IMO.

In this case, knowledge is best. Why? Because rigpa is opposite to ma rig pa. Knowledge is the opposite of ignorance.

N


Could you please explain then how "rest in rigpa" makes sense? How do you rest in knowledge?


"He rested in the knowledge of a job well done..."

"He rested in his knowledge of the basis...."
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12241
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby mzaur » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:21 am

Knowledge sounds so abstract. Like, I have a lot of knowledge about computers. How do I rest in that knowledge?I guess I don't understand what you mean by knowledge. Language is tricky.

To use your example of a job well done. Ok, so I 'know' I did a job well done because I have the thought, 'wow I did a great job' and the feeling of relief, satisfaction, etc.. so there is a thought and a feeling.. and you rest in that? :shrug:
User avatar
mzaur
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:18 am

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Sönam » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:40 am

Knowledge is also a potential, not only directed on something or filled with something ... this is maybe how it brights.

When there is no more ignorance, what remains? but it does not mean ignorance is replaced by something ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1987
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby muni » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:59 am

mzaur wrote:Knowledge sounds so abstract. Like, I have a lot of knowledge about computers.. Language is tricky.

:


Focus on words, they are not any longer means to transcend themselves, they are objects for tricky mind.

What Vairotsana said about language, he said ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyway, who turns around samsara on a vespa when there is a rollsroyce available?

practice, whether on vespa or in rollsroyce.
muni
 
Posts: 2945
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Dronma » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:17 pm

muni wrote:practice, whether on vespa or in rollsroyce.


:twothumbsup:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
User avatar
Dronma
 
Posts: 715
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:29 pm
Location: Athens - GR

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Kilaya. and 17 guests

>