How are teachers like Mangos?

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Malcolm
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How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:25 pm

Qualified masters are extremely rare and hard to discern. They are like mangoes.

There are some teachers who look ripe and are ripe; some teachers who look ripe but are not ripe; some teachers who look unripe but are ripe; and some teachers who look unripe and are unripe.

If you find the first type of teacher or the third, fantastic. If you wind up with two or four, good luck.

Make sure your master has a real lineage.

There are many people out there these days who promote themselves as "Dzogchen masters", "tertons", "tulkus" and so on. There are many gullible people in America, etc., and many unethical people who don't mind taking advantage of them.

So be careful.

N
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Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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florin
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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby florin » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:37 pm

While checking a master's qualifications there is the risk of wasting precious time because only spending enough time with a teacher or attending his teaching will put you in a position to make an informed decision.
Vajrasattva fainted.

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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby Josef » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:50 pm

Namdrol wrote:Qualified masters are extremely rare and hard to discern. They are like mangoes.

There are some teachers who look ripe and are ripe; some teachers who look ripe but are not ripe; some teachers who look unripe but are ripe; and some teachers who look unripe and are unripe.

If you find the first type of teacher or the third, fantastic. If you wind up with two or four, good luck.

Make sure your master has a real lineage.

There are many people out there these days who promote themselves as "Dzogchen masters", "tertons", "tulkus" and so on. There are many gullible people in America, etc., and many unethical people who don't mind taking advantage of them.

So be careful.

N


Excellent advice.
In a perfect world this wouldnt be a concern, but then again, a perfect world probably wouldnt be samsara.

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Dronma
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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby Dronma » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:51 pm

alpha wrote:While checking a master's qualifications there is the risk of wasting precious time because only spending enough time with a teacher or attending his teaching will put you in a position to make an informed decision.


I prefer to waste a little of my precious time for checking the teacher before I trust him/her, than wasting my whole precious life by following fake gurus with wrong views! ;)
Thank you, Namdrol. This is an important warning for everybody! :twothumbsup:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~

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Paul
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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby Paul » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:59 pm

Could you please name those you consider ripe (or indeed unripe)?
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Malcolm
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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:05 pm

Paul wrote:Could you please name those you consider ripe (or indeed unripe)?


Oh, that is easy -- Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche.

As for the rest, people will have to go and check them out on the fruit stand personally.

N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby kirtu » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:35 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Paul wrote:Could you please name those you consider ripe (or indeed unripe)?


Oh, that is easy -- Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche.

As for the rest, people will have to go and check them out on the fruit stand personally.


The whole of the Tibetan Buddhist world cannot learn just from two, three, four, five teachers even if we only go on a kind of retreat with them once a year. It might be better in a way just to go with semi-ripe teachers who themselves might have no or low realization but are ethical and non-harming and do teach Buddhadharma to the best of their ability. Times are tough in a way. In another way we are already inundated with a massive banquet of Dharma.

Lineage holders have to do their best to pass on the lineage for the next several generations (not just the next one) so their main focus has to be this activity.

Kirt
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Re: How to choose a guru

Postby Nicholas Weeks » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:42 pm

Here is a traditional way to appraise gurus; even if all 10 are not there, yet if 3 or 4 are, that may be the best you will find these days:

Maitreya says in his Ornament for the Mahayana Sutras (Mahayana-sutralamkara):

Rely on a Mahayana teacher who is disciplined, serene, thoroughly pacified;
Has good qualities surpassing those of the students; is energetic; has a wealth of scriptural knowledge;
Possesses loving concern; has thorough knowledge of reality and skill in instructing disciples;
And has abandoned dispiritedness.


Or as Thurman's version puts it:

17:10. One should serve a (spiritual) friend who is disciplined, tranquil, serene, outstanding in good qualities, energetic, rich in (knowledge of) scripture, awakened to reality, skilled in speech, compassionate, and indefatigable.

A friend with these qualities is the ground of service. "Disciplined" means that the senses are restrained due to moral discipline. "Tranquil" means that the mind is internally quieted by discipline in meditative concentration. "Serene" means the instinctual addictions are eradicated by the discipline of wisdom. "Outstanding in good qualities" means that he is unequalled and non-deficient. "Energetic" means that he is not indifferent to the welfare of others. "Rich in scripture" means that his learning is not inferior. "Awakened to reality" means that he understands reality. "Skilled in speech" means that he is skilled in the techniques of speaking. "Compassionate" means that his mind is free from the desire for material possessions. "Indefatigable" means that he teaches the Dharma continuously and reverently.
Last edited by Nicholas Weeks on Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Malcolm
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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:57 pm

kirtu wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Paul wrote:Could you please name those you consider ripe (or indeed unripe)?


Oh, that is easy -- Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche.

As for the rest, people will have to go and check them out on the fruit stand personally.


The whole of the Tibetan Buddhist world cannot learn just from two, three, four, five teachers even if we only go on a kind of retreat with them once a year.


I was not making a global statement. Paul asked me who I thought was "ripe", and the context here is Dzogchen masters. I do not know other Dzogchen masters, apart from ones who have passed away. This is not a dis against other teachers.

Dzogchen should be learned from a ripe master. There are very few of those -- meet them while you still have a chance. I just mentioned two.

N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

krodha
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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby krodha » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:35 pm

They certainly are few and far between, Lopon Tenzin Namdak and Chatral Rinpoche also come to mind(though I don't know them personally). I'm sure there's some dark horses out there who have yet to (or may never) publicly grace us as well. The true heavy hitters (who are still living) could very well be in the single digits though, would not surprise me in the least.

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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby ngodrup » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:45 am

Well that's an interesting point of view.

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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby Josef » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:47 am

ngodrup wrote:Well that's an interesting point of view.

What?

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Paul
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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby Paul » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:45 am

Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen should be learned from a ripe master. There are very few of those -- meet them while you still have a chance. I just mentioned two.

N


What exactly is "ripe", anyway?
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

Arnoud
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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby Arnoud » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:46 am

Never mind.
Last edited by Arnoud on Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby Arnoud » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:50 am

Paul wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen should be learned from a ripe master. There are very few of those -- meet them while you still have a chance. I just mentioned two.

N


What exactly is "ripe", anyway?


Ripe would be at least 3rd vision. So few are at that level.

I think it was Namdrol who said it took Kunzang Dechen Lingpa 7 years in strict Thogal retreat to reach 3rd vision.

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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby Soar » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:57 am

“If you propose to speak always ask yourself, is it true, is it necessary, is it kind?”
― Siddhārtha Gautama

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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby Sönam » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:57 am

I like the term Ripe ... because after a while it becomes Rotten

Sönam
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heart
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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby heart » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:02 am

Sönam wrote:I like the term Ripe ... because after a while it becomes Rotten

Sönam


That might be true for mango's, not Guru's though. The 4th vision is even better. :smile:

/magnus
We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.
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"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,
You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.
So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,
That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

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florin
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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby florin » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:41 am

Did CNNR reach the 3d vision?
Just curious. Not that it matters.
He is a great teacher anyway. :smile:
Vajrasattva fainted.

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Malcolm
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Re: How are teachers like Mangos?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:05 pm

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:I like the term Ripe ... because after a while it becomes Rotten

Sönam


That might be true for mango's, not Guru's though. The 4th vision is even better. :smile:

/magnus



We can consider the fourth vision, the exhaustion of dharmatā, rotten. So indeed a rotten guru is even better than a ripe one.
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http://www.bhaisajya.net
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Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham


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