How are teachers like Mangos?

[Malcolm]

Qualified masters are extremely rare and hard to discern. They are like mangoes.

There are some teachers who look ripe and are ripe; some teachers who look ripe but are not ripe; some teachers who look unripe but are ripe; and some teachers who look unripe and are unripe.

If you find the first type of teacher or the third, fantastic. If you wind up with two or four, good luck.

Make sure your master has a real lineage.

There are many people out there these days who promote themselves as "Dzogchen masters", "tertons", "tulkus" and so on. There are many gullible people in America, etc., and many unethical people who don't mind taking advantage of them.

So be careful.

N

[alpha]

While checking a master's qualifications there is the risk of wasting precious time because only spending enough time with a teacher or attending his teaching will put you in a position to make an informed decision.

[Josef]

Qualified masters are extremely rare and hard to discern. They are like mangoes.

There are some teachers who look ripe and are ripe; some teachers who look ripe but are not ripe; some teachers who look unripe but are ripe; and some teachers who look unripe and are unripe.

If you find the first type of teacher or the third, fantastic. If you wind up with two or four, good luck.

Make sure your master has a real lineage.

There are many people out there these days who promote themselves as "Dzogchen masters", "tertons", "tulkus" and so on. There are many gullible people in America, etc., and many unethical people who don't mind taking advantage of them.

So be careful.

N

Excellent advice.
In a perfect world this wouldnt be a concern, but then again, a perfect world probably wouldnt be samsara.

[Dronma]

While checking a master's qualifications there is the risk of wasting precious time because only spending enough time with a teacher or attending his teaching will put you in a position to make an informed decision.

I prefer to waste a little of my precious time for checking the teacher before I trust him/her, than wasting my whole precious life by following fake gurus with wrong views!
Thank you, Namdrol. This is an important warning for everybody!

[Paul]

Could you please name those you consider ripe (or indeed unripe)?

[Malcolm]

Could you please name those you consider ripe (or indeed unripe)?

Oh, that is easy -- Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche.

As for the rest, people will have to go and check them out on the fruit stand personally.

N

[kirtu]

Could you please name those you consider ripe (or indeed unripe)?

Oh, that is easy -- Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche.

As for the rest, people will have to go and check them out on the fruit stand personally.

The whole of the Tibetan Buddhist world cannot learn just from two, three, four, five teachers even if we only go on a kind of retreat with them once a year. It might be better in a way just to go with semi-ripe teachers who themselves might have no or low realization but are ethical and non-harming and do teach Buddhadharma to the best of their ability. Times are tough in a way. In another way we are already inundated with a massive banquet of Dharma.

Lineage holders have to do their best to pass on the lineage for the next several generations (not just the next one) so their main focus has to be this activity.

Kirt

[Will]

Here is a traditional way to appraise gurus; even if all 10 are not there, yet if 3 or 4 are, that may be the best you will find these days:

Maitreya says in his Ornament for the Mahayana Sutras (Mahayana-sutralamkara):

Rely on a Mahayana teacher who is disciplined, serene, thoroughly pacified;
Has good qualities surpassing those of the students; is energetic; has a wealth of scriptural knowledge;
Possesses loving concern; has thorough knowledge of reality and skill in instructing disciples;
And has abandoned dispiritedness.

Or as Thurman's version puts it:

17:10. One should serve a (spiritual) friend who is disciplined, tranquil, serene, outstanding in good qualities, energetic, rich in (knowledge of) scripture, awakened to reality, skilled in speech, compassionate, and indefatigable.

A friend with these qualities is the ground of service. "Disciplined" means that the senses are restrained due to moral discipline. "Tranquil" means that the mind is internally quieted by discipline in meditative concentration. "Serene" means the instinctual addictions are eradicated by the discipline of wisdom. "Outstanding in good qualities" means that he is unequalled and non-deficient. "Energetic" means that he is not indifferent to the welfare of others. "Rich in scripture" means that his learning is not inferior. "Awakened to reality" means that he understands reality. "Skilled in speech" means that he is skilled in the techniques of speaking. "Compassionate" means that his mind is free from the desire for material possessions. "Indefatigable" means that he teaches the Dharma continuously and reverently.

[Malcolm]

Could you please name those you consider ripe (or indeed unripe)?

Oh, that is easy -- Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche.

As for the rest, people will have to go and check them out on the fruit stand personally.

The whole of the Tibetan Buddhist world cannot learn just from two, three, four, five teachers even if we only go on a kind of retreat with them once a year.

I was not making a global statement. Paul asked me who I thought was "ripe", and the context here is Dzogchen masters. I do not know other Dzogchen masters, apart from ones who have passed away. This is not a dis against other teachers.

Dzogchen should be learned from a ripe master. There are very few of those -- meet them while you still have a chance. I just mentioned two.

N

[asunthatneversets]

They certainly are few and far between, Lopon Tenzin Namdak and Chatral Rinpoche also come to mind(though I don't know them personally). I'm sure there's some dark horses out there who have yet to (or may never) publicly grace us as well. The true heavy hitters (who are still living) could very well be in the single digits though, would not surprise me in the least.

[ngodrup]

Well that's an interesting point of view.

[Josef]

Well that's an interesting point of view.

What?

[Paul]

Dzogchen should be learned from a ripe master. There are very few of those -- meet them while you still have a chance. I just mentioned two.

N

What exactly is "ripe", anyway?

[Clarence]

Never mind.

[Clarence]

Dzogchen should be learned from a ripe master. There are very few of those -- meet them while you still have a chance. I just mentioned two.

N

What exactly is "ripe", anyway?

Ripe would be at least 3rd vision. So few are at that level.

I think it was Namdrol who said it took Kunzang Dechen Lingpa 7 years in strict Thogal retreat to reach 3rd vision.

[Soar]

Kunzang Dechen Lingpa:

From http://tibetanaltar.blogspot.co.uk/2009 ... haras.html

[Sönam]

I like the term Ripe ... because after a while it becomes Rotten

Sönam

[heart]

I like the term Ripe ... because after a while it becomes Rotten

Sönam

That might be true for mango's, not Guru's though. The 4th vision is even better.

/magnus

[alpha]

Did CNNR reach the 3d vision?
Just curious. Not that it matters.
He is a great teacher anyway.

[Malcolm]

I like the term Ripe ... because after a while it becomes Rotten

Sönam

That might be true for mango's, not Guru's though. The 4th vision is even better.

/magnus

We can consider the fourth vision, the exhaustion of dharmatā, rotten. So indeed a rotten guru is even better than a ripe one.