NON-DUALITY

[booker]

mindyourmind for some reason when the [dualistic] mind dissapears the suffering also dissapear. It's like you would cool down the fire. And then you also know why you suffer and where and why does it come from. But there's no "you" in that, and by that it's also terrifying. Maybe not instantly everything is cleared up, maybe needs more time to clear up - depends on everyone's own condition but it's really worth at least to get a glympse of this, mate. It really is worth the efforts.

Best to you
b.

Does the suffering disappear, or do we deal differently with the suffering?
Or does the sufferer disappear?

Sufferer dissapears and suffering with it, too is gone.

[Mariusz]

mindyourmind for some reason when the [dualistic] mind dissapears the suffering also dissapear. It's like you would cool down the fire. And then you also know why you suffer and where and why does it come from. But there's no "you" in that, and by that it's also terrifying. Maybe not instantly everything is cleared up, maybe needs more time to clear up - depends on everyone's own condition but it's really worth at least to get a glympse of this, mate. It really is worth the efforts.

Best to you
b.

Does the suffering disappear, or do we deal differently with the suffering?
Or does the sufferer disappear?

Sufferer dissapears and suffering with it, too is gone.

Ordinary beings who enjoy Samsara usually take suffering as the pleasure or escape from it to neutral feelings. I guess you are not Bodhisattva on the 7 level "Gone Far Beyond" who can work directly with cognitive obscurations related to dualism. So it seems to me you, as ordinary being, are writing how minimize the suffering a little, how reduce it to neutral feeling, like some kind of zombie. Can you really recognize between neutral feeling and the lack of suffering?

[booker]

So it seems to me you, as ordinary being, are writing how minimize the suffering a little, how reduce it to neutral feeling, like some kind of zombie.

Yes I am an ordinary being, but the rest of your assumptions about my post you got wrong.

And quite interestingly you went so easily to find a fault in me... but this has to mean all your faults you must have cleared now, so - congrats.

[Dechen Norbu]

booker seems to have made a good point. The more you grasp your illusory self, the more you'll eventually suffer. Mariusz objection is not totally without merit, but it seems to me that booker never boxed his suggestion. It's a fact that right now if you start letting go of the attachment to an illusory self, practicing and gaining insight, thus letting go a little more, doing it again and again and so on until the 7th bhumi (or forgetting the gradual approach altogether, but that's not the point), suffering is bound to disappear. It doesn't simply vanish once you get through the 7th bhumi. I don't see the connection to the zombification of the practitioner in this process, Mariusz. Care to explain a little?

[Mariusz]

I don't see the connection to the zombification of the practitioner in this process, Mariusz. Care to explain a little?

I meant this zombification as tibetan stereotype of so called Hvasang Mahayana only, not as flesh-eaters from imaginary horrors.

[Dechen Norbu]

hahaha, of course. That I guessed. I just would like you to explain a little how do you see that happening. Do you think that by loosening our grasp over a self that has no existence before the 7th bhumi we zombify ourselves? It can't be something that simple of have in mind, so I'm trying to understand what are you saying.

[Mariusz]

hahaha, of course. That I guessed. I just would like you to explain a little how do you see that happening. Do you think that by loosening our grasp over a self that has no existence before the 7th bhumi we zombify ourselves? It can't be something that simple of have in mind, so I'm trying to understand what are you saying.

Many things can happen before 7th bhumi. As you already know in Sutra you can be also:

1. Srotapanna - Stream Enterer

2. Sakrdagamin - Once Returner

3. Anagamin - Non-Returner

4. Arhat - Liberated from the cycle of birth and death

The answer from Mahayanists against this so called Hvasang Mahayana was "mental nonengagement".

As we are in Dzogchen forum, so one can be also intruduced into Rigpa in the first place. HYT or Inner Tantras methods of completion stage are also sufficient.

[Dronma]

The answer from Mahayanists against this so called Hvasang Mahayana was "mental nonengagement".

I agree with Mariusz in that: "Ordinary beings who enjoy Samsara usually take suffering as the pleasure or escape from it to neutral feelings".
Surely, neutral feeling has nothing to do with the end of suffering!
Zombification or not, it can be a subtle trap for practitioners.
It is the first time I hear about Hvasang Mahayana, though. Very interesting....

[asunthatneversets]

The answer from Mahayanists against this so called Hvasang Mahayana was "mental nonengagement".

I agree with Mariusz in that: "Ordinary beings who enjoy Samsara usually take suffering as the pleasure or escape from it to neutral feelings".
Surely, neutral feeling has nothing to do with the end of suffering!
Zombification or not, it can be a subtle trap for practitioners.
It is the first time I hear about Hvasang Mahayana, though. Very interesting....

In the book "The Practice Of Dzogchen" which is Tulku Thondup's translation of Longchenpa there's a section called Dzogpa Chenpo And Ha-Shang Mahāyāna (Pg. 112) which compares and contrasts notable distinctions between the two. I was going to type out what it said but it's actually pretty lengthy. It comments on the dangers of the neutral zombie like state Ha-Shang Mahāyāna embraces and I believe has some stories about monks who were found frozen in a state of mindless samādhi and had to be revived. Not a good route!

[Dronma]

The answer from Mahayanists against this so called Hvasang Mahayana was "mental nonengagement".

I agree with Mariusz in that: "Ordinary beings who enjoy Samsara usually take suffering as the pleasure or escape from it to neutral feelings".
Surely, neutral feeling has nothing to do with the end of suffering!
Zombification or not, it can be a subtle trap for practitioners.
It is the first time I hear about Hvasang Mahayana, though. Very interesting....

In the book "The Practice Of Dzogchen" which is Tulku Thondup's translation of Longchenpa there's a section called Dzogpa Chenpo And Ha-Shang Mahāyāna (Pg. 112) which compares and contrasts notable distinctions between the two. I was going to type out what it said but it's actually pretty lengthy. It comments on the dangers of the neutral zombie like state Ha-Shang Mahāyāna embraces and I believe has some stories about monks who were found frozen in a state of mindless samādhi and had to be revived. Not a good route!

Ah! Thank you, asunthatneversets!
I shall read this book for sure. Probably there is already into my huge e-books' collection...
So, Mariusz had a very strong point when he was talking about Zombification - thank you, Dechen Norbu, for this inspiring term!

[booker]

So, Mariusz had a very strong point when he was talking about Zombification

Sure the point is valid. What was invalid was Mariusz's assumption on my post, where he believed I advocated such a thing....

[Dronma]

So, Mariusz had a very strong point when he was talking about Zombification

Sure the point is valid. What was invalid was Mariusz's assumption on my post, where he believed I advocated such a thing....

Yes, I understand, booker. That's why I quoted only some sentences from Mariusz' post.
By the way, I discovered "The Practice Of Dzogchen" in my e-books' collection and I am reading now the pages about Ha-Shang Mahāyāna and the differences comparing with Dzogpa Chenpo. Very interesting and inspiring!!! A required study for any sincere practitioner.

[Mariusz]

So, Mariusz had a very strong point when he was talking about Zombification

Sure the point is valid. What was invalid was Mariusz's assumption on my post, where he believed I advocated such a thing....

Yes, I understand, booker. That's why I quoted only some sentences from Mariusz' post.
By the way, I discovered "The Practice Of Dzogchen" in my e-books' collection and I am reading now the pages about Ha-Shang Mahāyāna and the differences comparing with Dzogpa Chenpo. Very interesting and inspiring!!! A required study for any sincere practitioner.

If I can recommend, "Mental Nonengagement in Meditation", p.310, The Center of the Sunlit Sky Madhyamaka in the Kagyü Tradition; Snow Lion Publications; Karl Brunnhölzl is also good reading, because it deals with many other points within Madhyamaka. According to it the practice of Madhyamaka of shamata/vipassana is also sufficient

[Sönam]

Ah! Thank you, asunthatneversets!
I shall read this book for sure. Probably there is already into my huge e-books' collection...

I do recommand it to you ... there is large extract of the Tshig-Don Rin-Po-Ch'e'i mDzod of Longchen Rabjam which clarifies a lot ... it's one of my favorite.
But it does not exists in e-book ... only a scribd version.

Sönam
(nb : I just saw that you have it ...)

[Mariusz]

Sure the point is valid. What was invalid was Mariusz's assumption on my post, where he believed I advocated such a thing....

[Dechen Norbu]

I didn't make the connection either.
Thanks for explaining Mariusz.

[Dronma]

If I can recommend, "Mental Nonengagement in Meditation", p.310, The Center of the Sunlit Sky Madhyamaka in the Kagyü Tradition; Snow Lion Publications; Karl Brunnhölzl is also good reading, because it deals with many other points within Madhyamaka. According to it the practice of Madhyamaka of shamata/vipassana is also sufficient

Thank you, Mariusz. I shall look for these books, too!

[Dronma]

I do recommand it to you ... there is large extract of the Tshig-Don Rin-Po-Ch'e'i mDzod of Longchen Rabjam which clarifies a lot ... it's one of my favorite.
But it does not exists in e-book ... only a scribd version.

Sönam
(nb : I just saw that you have it ...)

Merci, Sönam!
Well, yes, it is one of those pdf versions....