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 Post subject: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:40 am 
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I want to ask a very complicated question here, but in a very simple manner.

Why do you accept that a state of non-duality, in your practice and everyday life, as a goal and as a path of liberation, is to be desired and achieved?
Why do we accept this as such an important truth?

I am not going to give too much direction to the question at the outset, as I would love to see what type of responses we get. Please therefor answer the question as it may make sense to you, at this stage. In particular, please note that I have made up my own mind on this, and I am not really seeking for any definitive answers or lectures, I would love to see what your own ideas are on this, for your path.

You have given this a lot of thought previously, haven't you? :popcorn:

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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:02 pm 
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First we do not accept non duality because someone say of non duality. We accept it because we check it ourself and we find for ourself that this life is non duality.

Because life is non duality, living in duality just bring unnecessary suffering. Suffering which is not there in the first place. We suffer unnecessarily.

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I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:16 pm 
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If there is duality, there is the ignorance and suffering.

Ju Mipham:

Suchness (nature of reality) free of all types of differentiation (all ignorance) appears in its one taste (beyond reference points) when these are all absent:

• What appears to the nonconceptual sensory faculty as a duality of perceived and perceiver
• The process of formulation conducted by the rational mind, which is conceptual and first makes the assumption that whatever appears to be a duality (subjekt-object) actually exists that way and then formulates it by assigning a specific term
• The inner faculties, that of the eye and so on
• Outer objects, form and so on
• The principles of awareness, the eye consciousness, and so on
• Vessel-like worlds’ appearances experienced in common.


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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Curious question ... It did'nt and does'nt happen so?

Sönam

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:34 pm 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
First we do not accept non duality because someone say of non duality. We accept it because we check it ourself and we find for ourself that this life is non duality.

Because life is non duality, living in duality just bring unnecessary suffering. Suffering which is not there in the first place. We suffer unnecessarily.



Sounds like cliches to me. All of it. Have you reached that state, where these truisms make sense to you, where you know them as fact?
How does non-duality end suffering? What if the non-dual state is a state of suffering?

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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:35 pm 
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Mariusz wrote:
If there is duality, there is the ignorance and suffering.

Ju Mipham:

Suchness (nature of reality) free of all types of differentiation (all ignorance) appears in its one taste (beyond reference points) when these are all absent:

• What appears to the nonconceptual sensory faculty as a duality of perceived and perceiver
• The process of formulation conducted by the rational mind, which is conceptual and first makes the assumption that whatever appears to be a duality (subjekt-object) actually exists that way and then formulates it by assigning a specific term
• The inner faculties, that of the eye and so on
• Outer objects, form and so on
• The principles of awareness, the eye consciousness, and so on
• Vessel-like worlds’ appearances experienced in common.


So says Mipham Rinpoche. What do YOU say?

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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:40 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
Curious question ... It did'nt and does'nt happen so?

Sönam


A "curious" question?

So the term non-duality need not be questioned, or investigated. You are comfortable with it? Have you arrived at that stage after investigation or did you just accept it?

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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:01 pm 
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mindyourmind wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:
First we do not accept non duality because someone say of non duality. We accept it because we check it ourself and we find for ourself that this life is non duality.

Because life is non duality, living in duality just bring unnecessary suffering. Suffering which is not there in the first place. We suffer unnecessarily.



Sounds like cliches to me. All of it. Have you reached that state, where these truisms make sense to you, where you know them as fact?
How does non-duality end suffering? What if the non-dual state is a state of suffering?


If you realize non duality, you cannot suffer at all. How can it be?

If someone lost his hand, the one that make that person suffer is actually not losing his hand, but his attachment to his hand. His attachment comes from duality mind - this is hand and this is not hand, this I, yours etc.

If you realize non duality there is nothin belong to you. Even this hand is not yours. It is actually a big mistake to realize this hand is yours. But it is very difficult for duality mind to realize this is not your hand.

If your non duality is extremely profound, this is even not hand. This is just another form, like another form of a tree out there.

Everything is just causes and condition.

You can go under the hot sun. You will feel hot. That feeling of hot for dualistic mind may give suffering or discomfort or pleasure.

But if you ever experience no self and that moment The hot that you feel just ok. It is not suffering, it is also not pleasure.
The hot is just like that and there is no discomfort. There is hot but it is not yours, there is no experiencer.

The feeling is very different with the one who enjoy sun bath. For him, it is pleasure. For the one who don't like, it is suffering. But for the one who realiZe non duality it is the happiness of non suffering and non pleasure.

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I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


Last edited by DarwidHalim on Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Omniscience seems to be a major aspect of the realization of non-duality, because for example if there is Omniscience then there is no possible way to perform any actions that lead to suffering (and there is obviously much more possibility to assist sentient beings to end suffering as well). And non-duality implies all-inclusiveness, from every planet and dimension down to every subatomic particle, even if total Omniscience is not fully realized until the 16th Bhumi.


Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:05 pm 
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mindyourmind wrote:
How does non-duality end suffering? What if the non-dual state is a state of suffering?


Non-duality does not end suffering. People suffer in the state of non-duality.

What is the state of non-duality [from the Buddhist and Dzogchen POV]? Just the fact that all things arise in dependence and are therefore empty, free from all extremes. There is no non-duality apart from that.

However, by recognizing that we are suffering because we do not perceive the non-dual nature of things, we can reverse that suffering.

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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:12 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:
How does non-duality end suffering? What if the non-dual state is a state of suffering?


Non-duality does not end suffering. People suffer in the state of non-duality.

What is the state of non-duality [from the Buddhist and Dzogchen POV]? Just the fact that all things arise in dependence and are therefore empty, free from all extremes. There is no non-duality apart from that.

However, by recognizing that we are suffering because we do not perceive the non-dual nature of things, we can reverse that suffering.


Thread-killer :D

But more than just the "right answer" I actually want to see how people arrive at this "goal", where they want to reach a state of non-duality, to realize it. Is it given enough thought, is it understood from own experience?

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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:25 pm 
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mindyourmind wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Curious question ... It did'nt and does'nt happen so?

Sönam


A "curious" question?

So the term non-duality need not be questioned, or investigated. You are comfortable with it? Have you arrived at that stage after investigation or did you just accept it?


Intellectual investigation of a term, wether non-dual or any other, is not the process ... that's why I found the question curious.

Sönam

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:26 pm 
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mindyourmind wrote:
How does non-duality end suffering? What if the non-dual state is a state of suffering?


As a newcomer to all of this, I cannot offer a profound and convincing answer to your questions. My sense is that there is a point of logic, though, rooted in basic Buddhist teaching.

1. The First Noble Truth, the truth of dukkha, is in essence that everything compounded (all sankhaara/samskaara) is dukkha, unsatisfactory, skew-whiff, "suffering". Sankhaara/samskaara, in the passive sense in which it is used here, means "that which is put together". It involves multiplicity, or the perception of multiplicity; and, at the level of the experience of dukkha, it is also dyadic: Entity A (real in absolute terms or not) experiences dukkha. This looks intrinsically dualistic to me: the perception, at least, involves a subject of experience and an object of experience, that is to say, what it is that is experienced.

2. The Second Noble Truth, dukkha-samudaya in Pali, is in essence that dukkha is caused to arise: it is experienced in dependence on a cause. Again, there is a binary: Cause C causes dukkha; or to put it in logical terms, the experience of dukkha arises if, and only if, C. In the classical formulation of the Second Noble Truth, what "C" -- the cause of dukkha -- stands for is craving (tanha) conditioned by ignorance (avijja/avidya). Craving is also binary: Sally has a craving for cheesecake, or whatever. It reflects at least the perception of a dualism of a subject of craving and the object or objects of craving; and something similar can be said about ignorance.

3. The Third Noble Truth, dukkha-nirodha, is in essence that when the causes of dukkha are eradicated, dukkha ceases. Logically, the experience of dukkha arises if, and only if, C; but not-C, therefore dukkha does not arise. The eradication of craving involves the eradication of the dualism of subject of craving and object or objects craved. The eradication of ignorance is, in a fundamental sense, the eradication of dualistic vision. When dualism is eradicated, involving as it does the ending of the perception of a distinction between subjects and objects, between subject of experience and objects of experience and all that in any real sense, the very notion of experience of dukkha in real terms ceases to make sense: the distinction between the experiencer or perceiver and what is experienced or perceived no longer has any purchase, and dukkha turns out to be smoke and mirrors as it were. If I have it right, the very notion that the non-dual state realised to be non-dual might be a state of dukkha, of suffering, is incoherent.

Apologies for drawing on Pali sources: I'm familiar with them, and with their formulation of basic Buddhist teachings, and am trying to make sense of this "brave new world" of Vajrayana and Dzogchen by drawing on things I know, for what they are worth.

Does this make sense?

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Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Sally Gross wrote:

Does this make sense?



Yes, it does, thank you Sally. Therein lies another thread, for another day.

And please don't stop seeing this brave new world through the eyes of what you have learned.

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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:52 pm 
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mindyourmind wrote:
I am not going to give too much direction to the question at the outset, as I would love to see what type of responses we get. Please therefor answer the question as it may make sense to you, at this stage. In particular, please note that I have made up my own mind on this, and I am not really seeking for any definitive answers or lectures, I would love to see what your own ideas are on this, for your path.


Mindyourmind, since you are not looking for answers, then what is the true purpose of your thread?
To examine others' level of realization?

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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:00 pm 
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mindyourmind wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
If there is duality, there is the ignorance and suffering.

Ju Mipham:

Suchness (nature of reality) free of all types of differentiation (all ignorance) appears in its one taste (beyond reference points) when these are all absent:

• What appears to the nonconceptual sensory faculty as a duality of perceived and perceiver
• The process of formulation conducted by the rational mind, which is conceptual and first makes the assumption that whatever appears to be a duality (subjekt-object) actually exists that way and then formulates it by assigning a specific term
• The inner faculties, that of the eye and so on
• Outer objects, form and so on
• The principles of awareness, the eye consciousness, and so on
• Vessel-like worlds’ appearances experienced in common.


So says Mipham Rinpoche. What do YOU say?


As you saw, I said "If there is duality, there is the ignorance and suffering".
In other words, there never was the duality in the first place, so there never was the ignorance in the first place. and there never was the suffering in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:09 pm 
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i dont see non-duality.i can only understand duality. :smile:

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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:21 pm 
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alpha wrote:
i dont see non-duality.i can only understand duality. :smile:
It is ok. It is called "valid cognition". But it is as the antidote, method, tool only and is necessary to point out. For the collapse of this cognition one should be aware: Don't look at the finger instead of the moon.


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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:07 pm 
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mindyourmind wrote:

Why do you accept that a state of non-duality, in your practice and everyday life, as a goal and as a path of liberation, is to be desired and achieved?
Why do we accept this as such an important truth?




Faith. Dharma and my own observations have adequately demonstrated to me that dualistic mind is the cause of suffering. And I have faith that there's an alternative.


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 Post subject: Re: NON-DUALITY
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:29 pm 
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mindyourmind wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:
How does non-duality end suffering? What if the non-dual state is a state of suffering?


Non-duality does not end suffering. People suffer in the state of non-duality.

What is the state of non-duality [from the Buddhist and Dzogchen POV]? Just the fact that all things arise in dependence and are therefore empty, free from all extremes. There is no non-duality apart from that.

However, by recognizing that we are suffering because we do not perceive the non-dual nature of things, we can reverse that suffering.


Thread-killer :D

But more than just the "right answer" I actually want to see how people arrive at this "goal", where they want to reach a state of non-duality, to realize it. Is it given enough thought, is it understood from own experience?


Is thread-killer is an affectionate way of saying, "Thank you, no further questions your honor." ??

I never knew/thought that the non-duality provided any relief from suffering directly. I've glimpsed non-duality and because of my dichotomies I sometimes find the non-duality painful like anything else. It seems that by recognizing the suffering itself I can map the reversal - through causality I can come to correct the mistakes I make in solidifying that which is not solid to start with... by glimpsing through identity with direct experience and the courage to do something differently, i simply break the habit of its strength. What provides relief is actually (in my own experience) the courage that comes from knowing and being open to the full vulnerability of uncertainty and knowing from already verified direct experience how it's all been a passing dream and the present is a future slipping into a past tense. And by knowing, I mean really KNOWING it when something is happening in real-time by trusting in the moment's fleeting illusion that it's shown me a trillion times before...

Why does anyone want to reach any state? I don't know that reaching any state is the point. It's the not reaching that seems to matter most and create the gap that allows for real insight to emerge...

sorry if :offtopic:

:namaste:

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