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Love it or leave it - Dhamma Wheel

Love it or leave it

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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tiltbillings
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Love it or leave it

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:25 am


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retrofuturist
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Love it or leave it

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:33 am

Greetings Tilt,

Scary stuff.

I saw someone with an "Australia: Love it or leave it" bumper stick on their van the other day.

I must admit a bit of schadenfreude in seeing that some local authority had put a wheel clamp on one of his tyres (presumably for some unrelated infringement).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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cooran
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby cooran » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:00 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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tiltbillings
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:23 am


Shonin
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby Shonin » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:29 am


Paññāsikhara
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby Paññāsikhara » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:18 am

My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: .

Shonin
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby Shonin » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:41 am

Yes, true. Unless you can claim that your ancestors have been in the area since at least the end of the Jurassic then you have no claim to exclusive right to live there. :)

On the other hand, I do think the issue is more complex than this. Without falling into racism and nationalism we do need to find skillful ways to take responsibility for the stability of our societies and the successful integration of communities and individuals into those societies. And if that involves putting brakes on immigration or more education for immigrants then so be it.

Many people are afraid to talk about this especially politicians because of the fear of it being (wrongly) perceived as being racist. But the alternative may be divided communities, resentment, ghettoisation, interracial conflict etc.

We can idealise a society where everyone loves everyone else unconditionally but that's not actual reality. We need to work with actual reality.

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cooran
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby cooran » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:04 am

Hello all,

I work in one of the most culturally diverse areas in the world, let alone in Australia.
Look at pages 10 to 15 to get an idea.
It is working well – an occasionally unpleasant incident – but that happens in low socio-economic areas without cultural diversity as well.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... vwzaG0UAvg

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Kim OHara
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Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Love it or leave it

Postby Kim OHara » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:53 am


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Ben
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:17 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Dan74
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby Dan74 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:08 am

To add to Ben's excellent summary, let me say that refugees form a tiny proportion of new arrivals in Australia and a more pressing question is immigration, ie the appropriate levels of intake, criteria, etc. Many European countries in comparison takes a lot more refugees and proper procedures for settling and acclimatising to a new country and culture have often been lacking.

It's really a complex problem with xenophobia as one component, but not the only one. Like Shonin said, sometimes there are genuine issues to be addressed, like learning the language and the customs of the country one comes to. This of course is a 2-way process - the system has to be in place as is the willingness to adapt to some extent.

I am familiar with the Swiss example to some extent (married into it!). For many years they let in people from Africa with no passports, alleged refugees, on temporary protection visas, but wouldn't allow them to work. Naturally some turned to the life of crime which fuels the prejudice. But interestingly the greatest amount of prejudice comes from the areas with the lowest proportions of these migrants which does point to xenophobia pretty strongly.

Here in Australia we have had pockets of trouble with ethnic gangs and though it often wortks really well integration can be a challenge. But personally I think it is definitely worth persisting with it and with welcoming new people to this country. As for boat arrivals, an argument can be made for a tough policy on humanitarian grounds since it arguably leads to less suffering when people are not put through the perilous journey and the long demoralising wait at the expense of those who take the "proper" chanels. Not sure, doesn't sit well with me but it's sometimes a question of choosing the lesser evil.
_/|\_

chownah
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby chownah » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:55 pm


Shonin
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby Shonin » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:23 pm

Interesting point and one I sympathise. On the other hand I don't think anyone is talking about taking away 'the right to pursue happiness'. Anyway this is about Germany not the USA.

Does social cohesion have value? Can it be fostered and encouraged? I think the answers to both of these questions is 'yes'.

Does such encouragement adversely affect happiness? I doubt it. I'd guess the reverse was more likely.

chownah
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby chownah » Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:09 pm

Shonin,
It makes some people happy to speak their native language.....by outlawing this one is infringing on their right to pursue happiness....to say that they must conform to some societal norm for language is making societal norm as our overlord...dictating to us and not nurturing us....if people want to speak various languages then the proper order of things is for society to find a way to deal with it....this puts things in a more proper perspective i.e. it is the individual that matters and it society is applicable only when it can nurture the needs and rights of the individual.
Seems like the topic has not been restricted to Germany and I was replying to a post which specifically mentioned the US....I would also like to point out that the wording of the declaration of independence does not limit the concept of human rights to US citizens....it indicates that these ideas apply to all humanaity....and I guess that would include Germans and the minorities they have a hard time dealing with.
To your comment, "Does social cohesion have value? Can it be fostered and encouraged? I think the answers to both of these questions is 'yes'." I reply, "Does social diversity have value? Can it be fostered and encouraged? I think the answers to both of these questions is 'yes'."
To your use of the word "encouragement" I reply that surely "encouragement" is good unless by "encouragement" you include passing laws which needlessly restrict people's freedoms and rights and by needlessly I mean just for the sake of cultural uniformity and specifically if it is done just because society is too inflexible to encourage diversity.
Cultural uniformity is the driving force for alot of the violence in the world whether it is used as a weapon to attack Muslims, blacks, gays, Jews, Latinos, (the list goes on and on and on and on......)

The call for societal cohesion is one of the main points of rhetoric whenever a society wants to gather its young men together and send them off to war......"we, the good the honorable the god chosen"...."them, the bad the dishonorable the damned"

chownah

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appicchato
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby appicchato » Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:35 pm

Pessimistic cynic that I can be (at times) feels it's too late this time around...given human history, and the way things are going, we're on the fast (and seeminly faster all the time) track to hell...language, tradition, the (rights of the) individual (never were, never will be), and the rest...we're (to use the vernacular) screwed...

On a more positive note, we have, fortunately, the Buddha's dispensation (if practiced) to rise above the fray...

Individual
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby Individual » Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:06 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


chownah
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Love it or leave it

Postby chownah » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:19 pm


Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: Love it or leave it

Postby Individual » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:08 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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Kim OHara
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby Kim OHara » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:36 am


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Ben
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Re: Love it or leave it

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:02 am

Its actually remarkable the number of people who go to another country thinking it is the laws of their country that apply to them, not the laws of the country they are visiting. I have vague memories of when I was a child going to Europe with my parents and siblings and witnessing an elderly woman having a dummy-spit and yelling in the most awful whiny accent...I AM AN AMERICAN! The poor woman was just laughed at and ignored.

Just last night I ended up on a US Dept of Immigration website looking at country-specific travel advice and visa info and it the message was stated unequivocally there - the laws of the host country do apply to US visitors while they are there. Then I got a shock when I ws listening to the radio this morning when one of our government ministers reiterated the same message to travellers going to another country that Australian laws do not apply.
I just thought it was pretty obvious.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..


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