What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:02 pm

What the young man said is true. Everything is illusion.

If we see the magician display the tiger and the tiger is running towards us, we may be very scared.

But, once we know it is just a magical display, where there is an appearance of tiger but no tiger inside, you will not scared at all.

People then think how if I face the real tiger and that tiger running towards me? Even I thought that tiger is not real, that tiger still kill me. It is real, isn't it?

Why everything is illusion????????

It is because we grasp into this I so strongly, something which is without reality or concreteness, becoming so real and so concrete.

If we are ready to die, because we know exactly we actually cannot die and we always continue, you will realize this life is illusion.

Put your position in the reality this body can die, but you cannot die. We cannot die because there is no self that can be destroyed. Our lives has continued since beginningless time. This continuity will continue without any end.

If you put your position in this point of view, you will see everything is illusion.

Happening, but nothing is concrete or nothing has substance, exactly same with illusion.

If you are brave and can see the emptiness of life, whatever tiger runs towards you whether in the dream or the 'real' tiger, they are no different. You are still alive and you can see everything has no substance.
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I do not exist neither non-exist.
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby White Lotus » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:06 pm

this is an interesting disagreement.
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby maybay » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:31 pm

Namdrol wrote:Nope, these are very clear. "the five aggregates are illusory. They do not exist" could not be clearer. The meaning of the illusion metaphor is very clear and is summed up in the tibetan term med par gsal snang i.e. clearly apparent non-existent.

:offtopic:
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:39 pm

maybay wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Nope, these are very clear. "the five aggregates are illusory. They do not exist" could not be clearer. The meaning of the illusion metaphor is very clear and is summed up in the tibetan term med par gsal snang i.e. clearly apparent non-existent.

:offtopic:


Not at all.
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:20 pm

maybay wrote:Show me a scripture that says reality is an illusion. You will not find it.


By the way, what is the difference between saying reality is like an illusion and reality is illusion?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:24 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:
maybay wrote:Show me a scripture that says reality is an illusion. You will not find it.


By the way, what is the difference between saying reality is like an illusion and reality is illusion?



The first is a form of weak realism; the second is the Buddha's view.
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby maybay » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:52 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:
maybay wrote:Show me a scripture that says reality is an illusion. You will not find it.


By the way, what is the difference between saying reality is like an illusion and reality is illusion?

You should find what is the same.
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby maybay » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:06 pm

Namdrol wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:
maybay wrote:Show me a scripture that says reality is an illusion. You will not find it.


By the way, what is the difference between saying reality is like an illusion and reality is illusion?



The first is a form of weak realism; the second is the Buddha's view.

If he valued righteousness so much he would have kept his kingdom. But have you ever heard of a righteous physician?
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:14 pm

maybay wrote:If he valued righteousness so much he would have kept his kingdom. But have you ever heard of a righteous physician?



You statement is a non-sequitar.
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby maybay » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:37 pm

Namdrol wrote:
maybay wrote:If he valued righteousness so much he would have kept his kingdom. But have you ever heard of a righteous physician?

You statement is a non-sequitar.

One should not try to do the impossible. Have I failed?
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:00 pm

maybay wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
maybay wrote:If he valued righteousness so much he would have kept his kingdom. But have you ever heard of a righteous physician?

You statement is a non-sequitar.

One should not try to do the impossible. Have I failed?


non-sequitar #2
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby conebeckham » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:13 pm

maybay wrote:Show me a scripture that says reality is an illusion. You will not find it.


Really?

Niguma's "Gyuma Lam Rim" comes to mind, but hey, that's just me.....
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby Paul » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:31 pm

conebeckham wrote:
maybay wrote:Show me a scripture that says reality is an illusion. You will not find it.


Really?

Niguma's "Gyuma Lam Rim" comes to mind, but hey, that's just me.....


Or Rongzom Chozang Zangpo's Establishing Appearances as Divine: "all apparent phenomena are nothing but delusions and there is, moreover, no freedom from delusion to be achieved by dispelling delusion".
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby maybay » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:25 am

The Lord spoke highly of solitude. I have no complaints.
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby greentara » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:14 am

He is so quiet,
so free of any kind
of knowledge, that no idea
of God is alive in him'.
Meister Eckhart
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby trevor » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:13 pm

Namdrol wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:
maybay wrote:Show me a scripture that says reality is an illusion. You will not find it.


By the way, what is the difference between saying reality is like an illusion and reality is illusion?



The first is a form of weak realism; the second is the Buddha's view.


I guess "like" is to avoid thinking that the illusion itself is real or inherently existent.

"Like an Illusion - Lives of the Shangpa Kagyu Masters":
The dakini Niguma does not say either that the mountain “really exists” or that she “made it appear.” She does not say that things are completely real, or that they are purely illusory: she says they are like an illusion.

from http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtr ... ?PID=10416
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:56 pm

When Buddhism talks about 'reality' and about something being real or not real, the meaning is a finite point whereby something cannot be reduced or divided, thus shown to have an inherent quality, something all it's own, that is it's "is-ness". So, you could say the Buddhist 'concept' of reality is, hypothetically, a finite point.

So, a Buddhist might say that a table isn't real , meaning that it is actually composed of non-table elements (nails are not a table, glue is not a table, wood is not a table) and that only when these components are put together, if it is seen by someone who already has a concept of "table" then and only then is it a table. If you lived someplace where they did not have wood tables, you would not see it as such.

It is preferable to say "nothing exists which is a table" rather than "a table does not exist" because in a relative sense, even though ultimately there is no table, in conventional 'reality' there is a table, and what each person experiences is his or her own 'reality' even though, again, that experience can be broken down. The personal reality is not a finite thing either.

Unfortunately, the English language does not have a good word for this. "Finality" would work to convey the meaning but not really the concept.
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby DarwidHalim » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:09 pm

Mirage is like a dream.
A dream is like a rainbow.
A rainbow is like a city of gandarvas.

In terms of appearances, rainbow and dream are different, but in term of their nature which is empty, all of them are exactly same.

Whether we say mirage like a dream or mirage is a dream, I don't see any difference.

For some people who say this life is like a dream, they are also right, because dream is happening in the sleep. While what we call reality is happening when we are not sleeping.

But, dream itself is also reality. It is the reality tht is occurring during your sleeping time. The reality of dream occurs. The content of dream is also reality, because it occurs.

But that reality of dream is exactly same with the reality when you wake up.

Both are empty of inherent existence.

Saying life like a dream or life is a dream are then no different.

Saying life is like an illusion or life is illusion are also no different.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu said after you wake up in the morning, you will see you are dreaming. But in this reality of big dream, you will realize you actually have been dreaming when you are in the bardo state.

some people can know they are dreaming when they dream.

Some people as well can see this life is actually a dream or illusions when they are awake, without the need to wait until they are in the bardo state.

The bardo state itself is also a dream or illusion.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby maybay » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:53 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:Whether we say mirage like a dream or mirage is a dream, I don't see any difference.

You need only consult a dictionary to discover the difference.

But that reality of dream is exactly same with the reality when you wake up.

Yes, except that we call the one illusive because it evaded our comprehension. How is it then that we can equate reality with illusion, and to add insult to injury, say that the Buddha's view is one of illusion, one of apprehending a deception? Say that reality is illusion and you nullify the very basis of distinction. You might as well say up is down.

The errors in the above posts, from assuming the whole is merely the sum of its parts, to confounding words, down to spelling, are simply an example of carelessness in expression. Perhaps if we had to write out these posts by hand and mail them to each other it would be a different story. In any case, Wittgenstein said all our philosophical problems are rooted in language. Freedom of speech, greater more open communication, liberty in the arts - these are all signs of a liberal trend in our civilization which in its present phase often errs on unbridled perversion. We are obsessed with having our say. Wasn't Tenpa Rinpoche put in jail for the liberties given to him? Don't we all resent the unreasonable dictates of our bloated legal systems that say one thing and force us to do another? Doesn't what goes for art these days sometimes just make you want to laugh? We have so much liberty in expression we hardly think to listen, much less to ask.

The next time you suspect a non-sequitur, or a black cat walks past twice, maybe you should take your foot off the pedal and consider that the words might not be all there is to the meaning. Trying to simplify reality into a metaphor is a task best left undone.
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Re: What is the concept of "reality" in Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:23 pm

maybay wrote:How is it then that we can equate reality with illusion...?


Because the real cannot be found on analysis.
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