What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

togg
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What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby togg » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:07 am

Hi!
Just found this...

Foregive me if it is old news, but:

"Teaching in Sidhbari, HP, India from April 4 to 6: His Holiness will confer the Kagyae Initiation on the afternoons of April 4 & 5 at the request of Khamtrul Rinpoche in his monastery Chime Gatsal Ling. On April 6 morning there will be a long life offering ceremony for His Holiness."

http://www.dalailama.com/news

What exactly is a "Kagyae Initiation" ?

Might have to change my flight schedule to get there in time...

Have a nice day!
T

Josef
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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby Josef » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am

Kagye is associated with the eight mahayoga herukas of the Nyingma.

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conebeckham
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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby conebeckham » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:46 pm

Ka Gye is a group of practices, or sometimes a single practice, combining eight yidam deities. "Ka" means word or Command, and "gye" means eight.

So, eight main deities. Basically, they are:
Yamantaka Heruka--Enlightened body
Vishuddha Heruka (Yangdak)-Enlightened mind
Hayagriva -Enlightened Speech
Vajra Amrita-Enlightened Qualities
Vajrakilaya-Enlightened Activity
Mamo Botong-Liberating of Mamos
Jigten Choto-Worldly or Mundane Worship
Mopa Dragngak-Wrathful Mantra

In addition, there's a 9th, Chemchok or Mahottara Heruka, who is usually viewed as the combination of the eight....

This is one of the primary Yidam traditions of all the Nyingma lineages. There are Kama and Terma traditions. These days, likely the most practiced "Ka Gye" is the "Kagye Deshek Dupa" which is a terma practice that combines all eight deities into one practice.

Pretty advanced yidam practice.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Karma Sherab
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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby Karma Sherab » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:15 pm

Hi Cone :namaste:

What do you mean by "Pretty advanced yidam practice?"

My understanding is that Kagye is the primary yidam practice(s) in the Mahayoga tantras of the nine yanas system. If you mean that one has to have completed Ngondro and perhaps other practices before then I see what you mean but most yidam practices are lik that in the Kagyu and Nyingma aren't they?

I have seen you use this expression (of advanced yidam/dharmapala) a few times for example referring to Nyingshuk Gonpo of the Shangpa Kagyu also as a pretty advanced Dharmapala practice. I have received the wang, lung and Tri for this practice quite some time ago before doing m "Nyen chen"(Karma Kagyu 3 year 3 fortnight retreat). Unfortunately Bokar Rinpoche is not around to consult and I don't have the money to for example visit Khenpo Rinpoche in Mirik at present. So I would be grate ful for any info you may have.

I understand that you will feel uncomfortable in answering this latter question in a forum so please feel free to contact me directly be email [email protected]

Thanks for your time.
Karma Sherab
One kind word can warm three winter months
Japanese Proverb

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conebeckham
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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby conebeckham » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:30 pm

Well....I think you're more qualified to answer this than I am, but here's what I mean..

In general, the commitments and practice requirements for some of these "advanced" practices would be hard to meet outside of a strict retreat setting. My experience is limited, though, to Kagyu and a bit of Nyingma-related sadhanas. The Sakyapas uphold Hevajra, Vajrayogini, etc., in daily practice, and there is the possibility that the more elaborate Kagyu and Nyingma practices are done this way, as well....so take what I say with a large tumbler of salt, eh?

But normally, the "advanced" practices require more elaborate preparation, take more time (are longer to perform), and/or have certain pre-requisites (like "Gonpo Nyingshuk," for example) that need to be done prior to being engaged. In the latter case, specifically, I believe extensive practice in the "Barchay Kunsel" form, along with "Driptsel," "Lagon Yermay," "NayBab/Khandro Wangdu," and maybe "LhaShi Drildrub" are required first. Therefore, It''s "advanced."

Again, I'm limited to my experience, and I think Nyingma structure their progession differently--but I get the impression that Kagye is not a common daily practice for people outside of retreat. I think there's a short, condensed practice, but the "full-on" Nyenpa/Druppa type of approach is rare. Most of my Nyingma friends view the "Two Stages" somewhat differently than those of us with a Sarma focus do....and they tend to focus on Terma sadhanas that don't require a lot of elaboration--one of the (many) beauties of Terma practices, if I may say so...

Also, there's the argument that the more "advanced" practices are actually shorter, and more condensed--and that the longer sadhanas are for beginners, who benefit from having more elaboration. But, you know, if I were to compare Chogling Drolma with Kamtsang Phagmo (and this is something that perhaps is just silly, in the first place, ultimately)--I'd say that in many ways Phagmo is a more "advanced"practice.....

Would love to hear what others think about this.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby Dhondrub » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:51 pm

In "The Lions roar" by Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche there is a little explanation on the meaning of Kagye.

best
tashi

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Karma Sherab
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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby Karma Sherab » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:08 pm

Thanks Cone,

Yes I see the point you are making especially with Gonpo Chagdruk Nying shuk. Although I have received the empowerments I am not very knowledgable on this system. The Nyingma I have exposure to, but I have not been involved with heavilly beyond pointing out instructions etc.

The Kamtsang and Sakya I have a little more experience with.

With Kamtsang Phagmo, the prerequisites are onerous, that is to practice properly the outer inner and secret levels of practice. The teachings are only given in their elaborate form to people who will really practise the yidam properly.

I know at Vajradhatu, even though the Sadhana they do “cuts to the chase” and omits the outer practice, a million recitations and fire puja (Homa, Jinsek) are mandatory to practice Demchog which is the specialty of the Sarma part of Surmang.

Certainly there is no avoidance of Ngondro and at least some Ladrup practice.

For myself, I had to do Ngondro, 5 Ladrups, outer and inner Phagmo etc before being invited to do retreat for 3 years 3 months.

Moreover the instructions on teaching to others are very strict as to the qualifications and pre-requisites of those who can be taught. One is instructed even to deny knowledge of even the existance of certain teachings if there is danger of being pressured.

I suppose all these yidam practices and the Kamtsang Gyal-de-pak sum come into that category of "advanced practices". Then there are the Nyingma practices within the Kamstsang - Vajra Kilaya (Sangtig Purba) Dorje Drolod etc which also have elaborate completion stages that require very pure Samaya. Yet, Vajra Kilaya is done as a prerequisite to clear obstacles for the 3year retreat practices. The Sakya do the same with Vajrapani Bhutadamara. (The Geluk of course would use Vajra Bhairava in the same context)

As for the "short" sadhanas. I have seen many practitioners who have received any of the Gyal-de-pak sum deities for example as a concise empowerment (given in one day instead of two - but yet containing the full empowerment as a blessing) by a lineage holder, then doing these short daily recitations as the sadhana of the deity.

These daily recitations are actually the sort of "spark your memory" and essence daily recitations intended to remind a practitioner who has practiced extensively in retreat of all the essential features of the practice. Yet our Lamas, to be kind, seem to give these as a Sadhana in itself for people who ask for a regular daily practice.

However the person practicing these may not (mostly do not) realize that there is a lot more to the practice and being satisfied, they seek no further. This is a skilful means possibly employed to keep ones interest alive but not break samaya and yet please the people receiving the empowerment.

The Kamtsang is actually very strict in the release of these advanced practices. Whereas in the Sakya tradition you can go and take a whole Lamdre and be geared up for practice for the rest of your life, the Kamtsang has no similar method. The Sakya, especialy with Naro Kacho, set people up where they virtually do not need any further practice beyond vajrayogini and the Lamdu practices.

If one really wants to follow the path of the Kamtsang, there appears to be no short cut.

As I am sure you are aware, Bokar Rinpoche ran a yearly Mahamudra seminar at Mirik each year, which after five years would include Yidam practice. Rinpoche himself found this a beneficial thing to do and I know that Khenchen Bokar Donyo Rinpoche is continuing this tradition. Also Vajradhatu continues with its excellent programme.

I think the truth is we are just scratching the surface. We are ambitious, and as Trungpa Rinpoche has said that is good. All the early lineage holders were ambitious. However, we have to push a little if we are to go forward.

Kindest regards,
Yours in the Dharma
One kind word can warm three winter months
Japanese Proverb

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conebeckham
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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby conebeckham » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:48 pm

Thanks for that Post. I think the way we practice these things adapts over time...Thrangu Rinpoche, for instance, has been teaching the full Kamtsang yidam practices, Outer/Inner/Secret, in a retreat context that's "in-again, Out-again" which is interesting, and perhaps more workable for some folks. There are also graduated Five Year Programs, or other structured programs, like the one Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche started. But some practices require strict retreat, I think.....

I recall reading somewhere that many Nyingma Three Year Retreats focus on Ngondro, Guru Yogas, and Kilaya, as well as Dzokchen Trekcho and Togal...and that the Mahayoga practices like Kagye and Gongdu may be engaged in as a "second" three year retreat. Can't recall where I read that, but I'd imagine the full Kagye Practice would be quite elaborate, and take time and strict retreat setting.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Karma Sherab
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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby Karma Sherab » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:38 am

Thank you, that is interesting.

I guess one could assume from that that Vajra Kilaya is (at least in the Nyingma tradition you refer to) the main yidam and the contemplative practices of Trekcho and Thodgel are the trolam.

Best of wishes
Karma Sherab
One kind word can warm three winter months
Japanese Proverb

dzoki
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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby dzoki » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:29 pm


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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby heart » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:37 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby dzoki » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:31 pm


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conebeckham
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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby conebeckham » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:41 pm



"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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heart
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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby heart » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:46 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

dzoki
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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby dzoki » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:04 pm


dzoki
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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby dzoki » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:06 pm


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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby heart » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:59 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

dzoki
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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby dzoki » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:55 pm


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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby heart » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:18 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

dzoki
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Re: What is Kagyae Initiation?! (HH DL)

Postby dzoki » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:00 am



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