the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Jadson = Element

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Jadson = Element » Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:20 am


Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Kenshou » Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:29 am

Oh boy, here we go.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:33 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:42 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:06 am


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:00 am


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:49 am

Hi Sylvester,

Perhaps I didn't express myself well. Or perhaps I don't understand your point. I can't quite see the connection with the "notself strategy".

What I mean is that I take that Sutta as saying that:
1. It is an extreme to claim that there is no objective reality';
2 It is an extreme to claim that everything one perceives or thinks about is part of an objective reality.

I'm sure that my understanding is rather imperfect, and may well be completely wrong, but I don't see why it would gives rise to the Unicorn problem you mention. Perhaps you could explain further.

Mike

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:22 am

Dear Mike

What I was hoping to suggest was that "Everything" (Sabba) in SN 12.15 was not intended by the Buddha to refer to the totality of the contents of this cosmos. I read "Sabba" as having a more limited meaning, ie the khandhas. I think you will find Ven Thanissaro offering a similar explanation for this term here -

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

at footnote #1.

If my reading is correct, it would perhaps be more meaningful to apply the admonition in SN 12.15 to simply be a rejection of the extremes of "The Aggregates exist" and "The Aggregates do not exist".

I think the Buddha was not too concerned with the other bits of the universe that do not constitute Dukkha. The 1st Noble Truth identifies Dukkha with the 5 Clinging Aggregates, while the Culavedalla Sutta elucidates that the 5 Clinging Aggregates are called sakkayo/identity by the Buddha. All self-views are ultimately traced to some form of identification with the khandhas and I suspect that is why the Mulapariyaya Sutta lays bare those roots of self-view in their various manifestations.

If a unicorn is therefore not part of the Sabba menagerie, should we apply SN 12.15 to take a middle stance regarding its existence or non-existence?

With metta.

Shonin
Posts: 583
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:11 am

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Shonin » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:32 am


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:42 am


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:01 am

Dear Mike

Thanks for the clarification. It looks then that we're on the same page. It appears I misattributed to you the position taken by others that SN 12.15 is some form of radical idealism pertaining to all phenomena "out there".

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:09 am


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:14 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:46 am


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:49 am

Perhaps an epistemological atomist (for want of a better term), if you subscribe to Kalupahana's description above?

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:13 am


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:54 am

Heaven forbid. Nothing close to ontological atomism, if that was what you thought I was suggesting. More like propositional atomism, a la Vienna Circle.

For myself, I don't know...

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:02 am


User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:48 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:59 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."


Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine