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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
That's how I take it. But never really noticed him equating with shamatha.


Yes, he does. I have heard him say this many times over the years.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:49 pm 
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I stand corrected then. Never had heard him saying that. And what do you think? Have you ever asked ChNN why does he do that or do you know why?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Really Magnus? I never noticed that...
I never understood him to see shamatha as the experience of emptiness.


ChNN frequently says this actually, but he does not mean realization of emptiness free from extremes, he means an experience where the mind is empty of thought.



Tashi delek,

Could this experience also be translated as : the awareness of the self emanating Wisdom, which is self emanating as the result of the absence of thoughts, which dissolve then into the Nature?

This is what Lopon Tenzin Namdak explains when i did understood him well.

Mutsog Marro
KY

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:24 pm 
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heart wrote:
I always found it quite confusing that ChNNR seems to equate shamata and emptiness.

/magnus


Ah, so that's it. Sonam's quote was indeed confusing...Rinpoche isn't talking about Pratītyasamutpāda (dependent origination) when he says shunyata/emptiness... so what does Rinpoche call dependent origination then?

It does seem that many people, especially non-Buddhists but also Buddhists too, talk about emptiness as a state of mind free from thought, perhaps because the word emptiness does seem to point to that experience [although of course shunyata does not mean that]. It does seem skillful for Rinpoche to accept that definition and use it.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:41 pm 
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From my understanding, thoughts are the display of awareness; and their nature is the same whether in a state of thoughts arising or in the state of stillness in the mind. We have to recognise this single identity of thoughts and awareness. Is this correct?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:50 pm 
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mzaur wrote:
heart wrote:
I always found it quite confusing that ChNNR seems to equate shamata and emptiness.

/magnus


Ah, so that's it. Sonam's quote was indeed confusing...Rinpoche isn't talking about Pratītyasamutpāda (dependent origination) when he says shunyata/emptiness... so what does Rinpoche call dependent origination then?

It does seem that many people, especially non-Buddhists but also Buddhists too, talk about emptiness as a state of mind free from thought, perhaps because the word emptiness does seem to point to that experience [although of course shunyata does not mean that]. It does seem skillful for Rinpoche to accept that definition and use it.


The experience of emptiness here is a Vajrayāna descrition.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:02 pm 
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what does it mean when there is a self aware space without boundary of and cannot be thought of being inside or outside and thoughts seem to arise from the middle of it ?

and the thoughts dont have much strength and seem to be somewhat similar to the space they arose from?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
mzaur wrote:
heart wrote:
I always found it quite confusing that ChNNR seems to equate shamata and emptiness.

/magnus


Ah, so that's it. Sonam's quote was indeed confusing...Rinpoche isn't talking about Pratītyasamutpāda (dependent origination) when he says shunyata/emptiness... so what does Rinpoche call dependent origination then?

It does seem that many people, especially non-Buddhists but also Buddhists too, talk about emptiness as a state of mind free from thought, perhaps because the word emptiness does seem to point to that experience [although of course shunyata does not mean that]. It does seem skillful for Rinpoche to accept that definition and use it.


The experience of emptiness here is a Vajrayāna descrition.


Ah, I see. So what does Vajrayana call the insight into Pratītyasamutpāda?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:12 pm 
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mzaur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

The experience of emptiness here is a Vajrayāna descrition.


Ah, I see. So what does Vajrayana call the insight into Pratītyasamutpāda?


Realization of emptiness.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:18 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Really Magnus? I never noticed that...
I never understood him to see shamatha as the experience of emptiness.


ChNN frequently says this actually, but he does not mean realization of emptiness free from extremes, he means an experience where the mind is empty of thought.


Like non-thought as in bliss, clarity and non-thought? He actually means something like non-conceptual?

/magnus

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:20 pm 
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heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Really Magnus? I never noticed that...
I never understood him to see shamatha as the experience of emptiness.


ChNN frequently says this actually, but he does not mean realization of emptiness free from extremes, he means an experience where the mind is empty of thought.


Like non-thought as in bliss, clarity and non-thought? He actually means something like non-conceptual?

/magnus


Yes.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:00 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
ChNN frequently says this actually, but he does not mean realization of emptiness free from extremes, he means an experience where the mind is empty of thought.


Like non-thought as in bliss, clarity and non-thought? He actually means something like non-conceptual?

/magnus


Yes.


It makes a great deal of sense in these terms, from the perspective of the Pali Suttas, particularly from the second jhaana/dhyaana. According to the Suttas, five factors enter into the first jhaana/dhyaana:
vitakka/vitarka, "thought", applying the attention to the object;
vicaara, reapplying the attention to the object, as it were;
piiti/priiti, rapture/joy/bliss;
sukha, happiness; and
ekaggataa/ekaagrataa, one-pointedness.

Vitakka/vitarka and vicaara are terms which refer to the conceptual, though the conceptuality is so highly attenuated in the context of jhaana/dhyaana, on traditional accounts which follow Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga at least, as to be more naturally describable as non-conceptual or verging on it. In the second jhaana, vitakka/vitarka and vicaara cease, so even tenuous conceptuality ends, and only piiti/priiti and sukha (which are not distinct from one another at this stage, and which are technically vipaaka -- the result of past kamma/karma), together with ekaggataa/ekaagrataa, intensified by the bliss, remain. In the third jhaana/dhyaana, piiti/priiti falls away, and in the fourth jhaana, sukha also falls away, leaving upekkhaa/upek.shaa (equinimity) in its stead and ekaggataa/ekaagrataa. In the later mainstream account of jhaana/dhyaana given in the Visuddhimagga, and as jhaana/dhyaana is practised and taught by such Theravadin teachers as Pa Auk Sayadaw and Ajahn Brahmavamso, the mind is empty of thought, to all intents and purposes, even in the first jhaana/dhyaana. From the second jhaana/dhyaana upwards, the qualification "to all intents and purposes" is not needed: the mind is empty of thoughts, full-stop.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:47 am 
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alpha wrote:
what does it mean when there is a self aware space without boundary of and cannot be thought of being inside or outside and thoughts seem to arise from the middle of it ?

and the thoughts dont have much strength and seem to be somewhat similar to the space they arose from?


It's meaning would depend on whether one is asking from experience or from the perspective of a general inquiry, a teacher with skillful means may answer in different ways depending on the circumstances surrounding the question... And that's just because how one relates to such an experience can either be binding or liberating.


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