Martial Arts Talk

[Blue Garuda]

For those who like their Aikido, here's a little clip of some friends, brothers, performing some defence moves against a live tanto (sharp dagger, usually 11 inch blade) as part of a slow demo. Apologies to those without Facebook who may not be able to view it:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=103819312652&set=vb.116045340850&type=2&theater

I can attest to the practical use of such moves, with the proviso that 'on the street' atemi (striking) would play a huge role. People who criticise Aikido say such things as 'no street thug would let you twist their wrist', which is true - unless you have smashed their eyes (metsubishi) or throat, for example (moves which are practised but rarely shown in a demo as kids DO watch and learn fast. )

The other criticism is that it appears that people are 'jumping', which is unrealisitic. This is actually and escape move. It is used in practice to allow people to apply a lock fully. If the recipient of the lock stood still he would have his bones broken, or the technique would have to be applied very softly - which is not good training practice.

In terms of Buddhism, it is a martial art which does allow for defence which causes pain, sometimes great pain, but does not necessarily cause great or permanent injury.

When attacked with a knife, 'not being there' is also kinda useful.

As for the hyper-aggressive guys, I'm afraid instructors tend to weed them out fast by showing them that if pain leads them to anger then anger leads to more pain.

Morihei Uesiba, the Founder of Aikido was an exceptional human being. In his youth he was immensely strong and his Aikido was 'hell dojo'. With time, he found how to be effective wiht less strength, but even near his death he broke a guy's arm for attacking him too gently. He was into Shinto and I know that our style began each session with breathing meditation and respect to the Kamiza on the shomen wall. He was also associated with Omoto (Oomoto) and that sect's quest for a peaceful society, part of which was to form a sort of 'kibbutz' which sadly failed.

It is one thing for an exceptional human to be a powerful martial artist in their dotage, but ordinary being like me end up busted and riddled with arthritis. Rumour has it that even Steven Seagal is looking a tad slow these days:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJQ8TGY ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EveSqhjwQGE

Oh, this is Seagal using pure Aikido techniques brilliantly. Well, he is a 7th Dan and taught in Japan. There is bad language and violence so turn down the sound or don't watch if you are offended by these things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgBrYX-5sK8

To understand how Aikido helps in our everyday lives I recommend:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aikido-Everyday ... 649&sr=8-4

[Blue Garuda]

I mean housing the two activities simultaneously under the same roof. I'm familiar with some instances in which this has gone very badly. It appears to me that the one I gave a post or two back is a counterexample to that. And it makes me want to go hunting for an aikido gi.

I was once part of e centre which had an Aikido dojo downstairs ans a Zendo upstairs. Weirdly, just about everyone involved moved away shortly after we completed it. There is great synergy.

[Mr. G]

BG,

I respectfully disagree that those aikido techniques would work against a knife weilding assailant skilled or not, but is highly aggressive. I think way better, realistic and practical methods for dealing with knives are found within knife based systems like Kali....in particular close quarter systems like Pekiti-Tirsia, Sayoc and Atienza kali. Even styles like Krav Maga that claim to have methods to deal with knives are greatly lacking. I think martial artists may enjoy the DVD "Die Less Often" 1 and 2. It gives a very realistic look at how knives fall into the framework martial arts whether it be empty handed, or armed.

[Blue Garuda]

BG,

I respectfully disagree that those aikido techniques would work against a knife weilding assailant skilled or not, but is highly aggressive. I think way better, realistic and practical methods for dealing with knives are found within knife based systems like Kali....in particular close quarter systems like Pekiti-Tirsia, Sayoc and Atienza kali. Even styles like Krav Maga that claim to have methods to deal with knives are greatly lacking. I think martial artists may enjoy the DVD "Die Less Often" 1 and 2. It gives a very realistic look at how knives fall into the framework martial arts whether it be empty handed, or armed.

Yes, knife-based martial arts are useful, but I'm assuming that a person is unarmed and having to deal with knives, as opposed to having one themselves. I saw Taliban trying to use Krav Maga and it as so awful I thought the video was a spoof. I don't deny that other MA's will work, but I can only comment on the Aikido I trained in. Our style also took traditional techniques and applied them to modern weapons such as baseball bats etc. and trained in use of sticks and kubotan etc.

In the past I have trained police and door staff in practical knife defence and I know what is effective. Fear, of course, may wreck any response, so familiarity with knives must be built over time. It's no good using a rubber or even wooden knife in training if you freak out when someone produces a blade - training must slowly build up to it. To state the obvious, it is also the case that if a skilled knife fighter meets a skilled unarmed person, a very different outcome may result. Thankfully, most street kids are very unskilled.

Yoshinkan is slightly softer than the style I trained within, and even that is part of the training of the Tokyo Riot Police. Aikido relies heavily on striking an attacker before attempting restraint etc. and sadly very few Aikodoka are trained in striking effectively.

As with all JMA, the effectiveness depends upon whether one has fushin or fudoshin (panic or calm when attacked). During gradings for 1st Dan and above, live tanto is used. I saw one person stabbed in the head (something I also narrowly avoided) and another had several tendons in his hand sliced through.

Unfortunately there are many soft schools of Aikido whose techniques would be utterly ineffective.

Of course, I can only speak from experience, but much of Yoshinkan and Shudokan Aikido derives from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu which was a battlefield fighting art.

The current head of my school has retired early from the RAF where he was a fighter pilot, military unarmed combat instructor etc etc - there is no way he would teach RAF personnel techniques which do not work in combat.

[Mr. G]

Yes, knife-based martial arts are useful, but I'm assuming that a person is unarmed and having to deal with knives, as opposed to having one themselves.

Yes, so am I. Knife based arts like Kali are pure knife based arts that take into account empty hands. No style can really claim expertise in knife fighting other than kali really.

it is also the case that if a skilled knife fighter meets a skilled unarmed person, a very different outcome may result. Thankfully, most street kids are very unskilled.

I disagree here. The unarmed assailant with nothing more than sheer aggression is just as deadly as a skilled knife fighter in their own right:

For example, a realistic knife attack would look like what is being demonstrated at :22 second mark:



not much skill involved at all, but all it takes is some forward aggression to take someone out.

[Blue Garuda]

Yes, knife-based martial arts are useful, but I'm assuming that a person is unarmed and having to deal with knives, as opposed to having one themselves.

Yes, so am I. Knife based arts like Kali are pure knife based arts that take into account empty hands. No style can really claim expertise in knife fighting other than kali really.

it is also the case that if a skilled knife fighter meets a skilled unarmed person, a very different outcome may result. Thankfully, most street kids are very unskilled.

I disagree here. The unarmed assailant with nothing more than sheer aggression is just as deadly as a skilled knife fighter in their own right:

For example, a realistic knife attack would look like what is being demonstrated at :22 second mark:



not much skill involved at all, but all it takes is some forward aggression to take someone out.

I'm sure there are any number of permutations of skill and aggression, but most martial arts fall into the trap of predictability, where they convince themselves that their art is effective..............until a beginner shows up who does not know the 'script' and pulps someone's face. If you plough towards a good (Yoshinkan) Aikidoka directly at their centre line they should be able to demolish that attack.

I have experience of various situations,as have door staff etc. I have trained, and so far my training has worked. That's not to say it always will, or that it is the best. Certainly, as I am now 58, I'm under no illusion that speed could beat me. The clip you showed seems like MMA looking for a take-down and 'as with all arts' it has vulnerabilities.

You won't move me from a position of knowing that certain techniques work, and as I don't know enough about them, I can't comment on those of other arts.

I do know, however, that many 'martial' arts are now really sports or spend their time kicking balsa wood or training to defend against a person on a horse. LOL

I would say that Kalari contains a core of good techniques and that few arts are comprehensive. So in terms of Japanese arts I would like Aikido to be teamed up with Karate, Iaijutsu and Jojutsu - or even Shorinji Kempo. Whe Aikido first appeared, those studying it would probaly already know Karate and weapons arts, whereas in modern times they needs to be re-introduced as complementary techniques.

[Jikan]

I'm following this conversation with interest, as someone who has heretofore relied on footspeed to get out of trouble... and is losing that footspeed due to aging & arthritis... and is likely to be living and working in urban environments until the end.

The vows we take in Tendai-shu prohibit owning or using weapons. I haven't discussed the matter of training with a jo, for instance, with my teacher.

I'm not sure how to work with this situation.

/thinkingoutloud

[Blue Garuda]

I'm following this conversation with interest, as someone who has heretofore relied on footspeed to get out of trouble... and is losing that footspeed due to aging & arthritis... and is likely to be living and working in urban environments until the end.

The vows we take in Tendai-shu prohibit owning or using weapons. I haven't discussed the matter of training with a jo, for instance, with my teacher.

I'm not sure how to work with this situation.

/thinkingoutloud

Well, Buddhism and the UK police agree here - it is all about the intention.

If you carry something which is designed as a weapon then there is an assumption that you mean to use it if necessary.

If, however, you are using a walking stick and use it for defence as a handy object, then it is free of malicious intent.

I also argue that if a person is skilled they may prevent the attacker from the negative karma of harming or killing - as well as avoiding negative karma for themselves if they can minimise harm they inflict on the attacker.

[Mr. G]

If you plough towards a good (Yoshinkan) Aikidoka directly at their centre line they should be able to demolish that attack.

Yes, this is theoretically correct in the majority of martial arts. In theory, if one is able to protect their centerline and center of gravity, one also won't be taken down to the ground....in theory.

The clip you showed seems like MMA looking for a take-down and 'as with all arts' it has vulnerabilities.

There was no MMA involved at all unless you're referring to the joint lock to immobilize the knife hand. The clip at the time mark I was referring to was to show that a person with a knife doesn't attack like in the videos you showed. One does not leave their knife wielding hand out. A knife attack is as quick as multiple jabs in performed utilizing various angles in a committed ballistic fashion - and this is referring to an untrained street thug.

You won't move me from a position of knowing that certain techniques work, and as I don't know enough about them, I can't comment on those of other arts.

My attempt is not to move you from your position, but if anything to perhaps advocate investigating knife based arts if one is trying to understand how to best deal with knife attacks.

I do know, however, that many 'martial' arts are now really sports or spend their time kicking balsa wood or training to defend against a person on a horse. LOL

I agree.

I would say that Kalari contains a core of good techniques and that few arts are comprehensive. So in terms of Japanese arts I would like Aikido to be teamed up with Karate, Iaijutsu and Jojutsu - or even Shorinji Kempo. Whe Aikido first appeared, those studying it would probaly already know Karate and weapons arts, whereas in modern times they needs to be re-introduced as complementary techniques.

I don't think it's necessary to pair up martial arts according to region. I'd prefer to take the best from each art. So in my opinion, a breakdown would look like this:

Standup: Boxing / Kickboxing
Grappling Ground Fighting: Judo / Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
Edged Weapons: Kali

[Mr. G]

The vows we take in Tendai-shu prohibit owning or using weapons. I haven't discussed the matter of training with a jo, for instance, with my teacher.

A Jo? Like for walking around? That would look a bit awkward. Now, you can use a walking cane - and a good kali school will show you how to use a cane to defend yourself.

If you are referring to the earlier conversation BG and I were talking about the use of a knife, one could think about carrying this (and having some prior knowledge of kali):

http://www.tuffwriter.com/

Also, regarding your vows about weapons, I split this topic off from the other thread which was more Buddhist related:

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=3945

[rory]

JIkan; anything can become a weapon when you're attacked: a book, a pen etc.... I have an agressive personality but no desire to fight. I lived in NYC for many years, was hyper-aware and still got attacked in broad daylight in midtown, winding up with agoraphobia. I took a self-defense class and I'm thinking of Aikido or even Jiu Jitsu. I have no desire to hurt anyone, my ego isn't involved at all, but it is very tiring and fraying for the nerves to be constantly hyper-aware. Living as you do in an urban enviroment you should for your own safety.
gassho
Rory

[Blue Garuda]

The vows we take in Tendai-shu prohibit owning or using weapons. I haven't discussed the matter of training with a jo, for instance, with my teacher.

A Jo? Like for walking around? That would look a bit awkward. Now, you can use a walking cane - and a good kali school will show you how to use a cane to defend yourself.

If you are referring to the earlier conversation BG and I were talking about the use of a knife, one could think about carrying this (and having some prior knowledge of kali):

http://www.tuffwriter.com/

Also, regarding your vows about weapons, I split this topic off from the other thread which was more Buddhist related:

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=3945

A stick of similar length to a jo is acceptable in more rural areas, but even there an actual jo may be recognised by Police as being 'adapted' as a weapon under Uk law. What is funny in the UK si that loads of people now seem to feel the need to use an alpine telescopic stick with a sharp point, which police don't regard as a weapon. Hmmm

In town, and even in public places such as pubs and clubs, trains, planes etc. a walking cane is perfectly acceptable and as you say makes a good weapon in trained hands. If it has a curved handle then it can be used to apply locks, restraint, or be used to for take-downs using the neck etc. as well of course various striking techniques - and it gives valuable distance in dealing with a knife. That is, as I say, in trained hands. In untrained hands it might well end up being used by the attacker.

There are several arts which teach stick fighting and a couple specifically for walking sticks - Canemasters for walking sticks, which I think is pretty poor stuff, and this for Irish Stick Fighting, which I recommend:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d43qH9w5Dow

A good book which explains training with sticks of difefrent lengths is:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stick-Fighting- ... 190&sr=1-1

[gregkavarnos]

Standup: Boxing / Kickboxing

You obviously have never trained in Muay Thai.

As for knife fighting. I was trained in a knife fighting system developed by my first teachers friend, a system that he then taught to French Foreign Legion special forces. I am afraid to say Mr. G, but it craps all over Filipino knife fighting. Now I know that Kali/Escrima is a complete martial arts system that utilises the underlying logic of it's knife fighting to sticks and open hands too (I am also trained in an Escrima system) BUT in terms of knife fighting per se, the system I mentioned above is just plain ugly. It draws some influence from Filipino styles too but is in a different category.

It utilises reverse grip, an emphasis on destroying the attack (hitting the weapon wielding hand) with an immediate (follow through on the same move) attack on a vital point. I stopped practicing it because just the idea that every strike meant the death of the opponent in 15 seconds maximum, was too much for me.

As for the video. See, the problem with the guys in the video is that they make the tragic mistake of stepping backwards from the attack and remaining on the attackers centre, rather than stepping in diagonally behind the attacker, thus limiting their opportunity for a follow up attack. Or maybe utilising the Jiu Jitsu stop 'em dead mentality, straight in with a strike to a vital point (throat, eyes, groin). In Aikido they utilise the irimi tenkan , in Muay Thai/Muay Boran the salap fun pla, to get behind the attacker.

salap fan pla.png (113.02 KiB) Viewed 556 times

irimi tenkan.jpg (5.8 KiB) Viewed 552 times

The Aikido technique tends to bring you parallel to the attacker, mainly because you go for a throw or lock. The Muay Thai technique brings you perpindicular to the attacker, since the emphasis is on striking the attacker with knees and elbows before controlling them. Both techinques allow you to utilise space properly too, coz if you just step backwards, unless there is unlimited space...

Anyway, the best technique, if somebody attacks you with a weapon, is (if the opportunity is there) to run away as fast as possible. It's impossible not to get cut at all and even the dumbest of assholes may manage to cut you somewhere vital, by mistake.

[Mr. G]

As for knife fighting. I was trained in a knife fighting system developed by my first teachers friend, a system that he then taught to French Foreign Legion special forces. I am afraid to say Mr. G, but it craps all over Filipino knife fighting.

I stopped reading and taking you seriously after I read this.

[gregkavarnos]

Well, I imagine that's just a blaring incidence of attachment. Especially if you consider that I am trained in Escrima too.

[Mr. G]

Well, I imagine that's just a blaring incidence of attachment. Especially if you consider that I am trained in Escrima too.

No, it's more that I've written you off as having a proficient understanding of kali/knife fighting. Sayoc Kali for example has contracts with federal law enforcement and military in the U.S. for training their tactical groups. Atienza Kali as well. When it comes to use of the knife for their tactical groups, the U.S. military has taken the time to research and form relationships with the best. I'm not saying "old school" WW2 knife methods a la Fairbairn-Sykes doesn't have their place, but it's the equivalent of riding a bike even though a Ferrari is available.

[Jikan]

Back to the walking stick issue from above.

I believe it was Blue Garuda who suggested I use a jo stick or something analogous to that as a cane. Well, I'm not too far removed from needing to walk with a cane due to arthritis and other issues. Like it or not, I have to admit that my appearance would not be made any goofier than it already is if I walked the earth like Gandalf with a stick taller than me. No one would look twice. *I'm from Portland.*

[gregkavarnos]

Who's talking about Fairburn-Sykes here? Okay, they make a nice dagger, but unfortunately limited to forward grip only and not much of a cutting capacity.
Looks like you missed this:

...It draws some influence from Filipino styles too but is in a different category.

and missed this bit too:

...taught to French Foreign Legion special forces.

But it makes an impression on me that you are willing to write off a system that you have absolutely no idea about, just because I happened to say to make a negative reference to a system you train in (and that I have trained in). AND you write off my understanding of a system without knowing my capacity in it.
I said:

Now I know that Kali/Escrima is a complete martial arts system that utilises the underlying logic of it's knife fighting to sticks and open hands too...

But if you bothered reading the...

Actually, now that I thought about it, I am wasting my time trying to discuss something with somebody that purposefully puts on blinkers at the first sign of criticism.

[Mr. G]

No one would look twice. *I'm from Portland.*

[Mr. G]

Who's talking about Fairburn-Sykes here? Okay, they make a nice dagger, but unfortunately limited to forward grip only and not much of a cutting capacity.
Looks like you missed this:

...It draws some influence from Filipino styles too but is in a different category.

and missed this bit too:

...taught to French Foreign Legion special forces.

But it makes an impression on me that you are willing to write off a system that you have absolutely no idea about, just because I happened to say to make a negative reference to a system you train in (and that I have trained in). AND you write off my understanding of a system without knowing my capacity in it.
I said:

Now I know that Kali/Escrima is a complete martial arts system that utilises the underlying logic of it's knife fighting to sticks and open hands too...

But if you bothered reading the...

Actually, now that I thought about it, I am wasting my time trying to discuss something with somebody that purposefully puts on blinkers at the first sign of criticism.

It's more that I don't have a high tolerance for mysterious independently developed systems that derive from Kali as being superior to Kali. I've met too many guys who spend a couple of years training in Kali and then create their own "styles" without having spend the requisite time in their chosen system, and then decide to break off and claim superiority. Sayoc Kali is known world wide. What is the name of this knife fighting system that is superior greg?