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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:52 am 
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No one is being certified here to do anything. This is an Internet forum discussing a koan, at times with humor. Sometimes humor is difficult to discern, especially cross-culturally and on the Internet.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:23 am 
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Astus,
See my edited post above in reply to you.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:06 pm 
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MalaBeads,

Getting lost in content is wondering whether "mind is buddha" or "neither mind, nor buddha" is the better. There are no "best methods", only working methods that one can understand and use. The majority of old Zen teachings in that sense are very much useless as they speak in a foreign language using unknown ideas. If one wants to uphold the principle that Zen is only about pointing to the nature of mind, one must use intelligible language and not dead Chinese rhetoric. So how could we translate this saying, "neither mind, nor buddha", into something sensible? I'd say, it is not intelligence, emotion or awareness, neither it is anything supernatural or beyond current existence.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:57 pm 
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Astus,

There are many ways to become lost in content. The one I have observed in zen is becoming attached to language, specifically, to the words themselves. Being mesmerized and led around by the word, which is a pitfall of "this very mind is Buddha." Having to use language is an enormous obstacle in the teaching of Buddhism.

I do agree that methods are expedients and the method that works best is the one that works at this moment, for this student or this circumstance. But every method also has its pitfall, and that is what Mazu is teaching about here.

Your post did help further clarify something for me, so thanks for that.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:18 pm 
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Btw, what i am talking about re: language has nothing whatever to do with translation issues. I am talking about being mesmerized by "this very mind" that is using language. I say this in case that's where the conversation goes next.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:20 pm 
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The dog has to take a crap, better take it outside!

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One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:40 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:32 am 
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MalaBeads wrote:
Another translation offers this:

If you can see through this, your Zen training is complete.

Present a sword to a swordsman;
Don't offer a poem unless you meet a poet.
When speaking say one third of it;
Don't give the whole thing at once.


There is a paragraph a little further on, in 'Gateless Gate', that refers to the old woodsman and the lost pilgrim, and that is worth some consideration, because once you find the old woodsman, he'll point you to the stream that stops you from feeling lost on the mountain.

Don't give the whole thing at once. The old woodsman has done this already, so there's no need to offer poems, unless you meet a poet.

That swordsman is in a fine village for striving, and you will be too, if you follow that stream.

No Mind, no Buddha. But Daibai is no fool, and for him, it is always Just Mind, Just Buddha. Either way, sit beneath the Bodhi Tree, and be happy.

The Irish say that it is by the brink of running water that poetry is revealed to the mind, and this koan is just like that.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:29 am 
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Location: Magga ~ Path to Liberation.
IMO, you need to include the physical body as well.


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