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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:37 am 
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"The Radiant Mind Course has been developed by Peter Fenner as a result of his international teaching over the last fifteen years. Peter had the good fortune to meet the Tibetan lama Thubten Yeshe, founder of the Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition in 1974. Lama Yeshe accepted him as his student and in 1978 he was ordained as a monk.

In 1983 he completed a PhD in the philosophical psychology of the Madhyamika school of Mahayana Buddhism. His other teachers included Lama Thubten Zopa Rinpoche, Geshe Thubten Loden, Geshe Lhundup Sopa, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and Sogyal Rinpoche. After nine years as a celibate monk, Peter handed back his ordination. As a postmonastic he embarked on an intensive exploration of Western forms of healing and therapy. In 1986 he began offering adaptations of Mahayana wisdom to mental health professionals. His workshops integrated Buddhist nondual wisdom with an understanding of group dynamics."


http://www.scribd.com/doc/59626875/Libro-Radiant-Mind

His book "The Ontology of the Middle Way" seams pretty serious:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/79335672/The- ... Middle-Way


What do you think? Another attempt to "adapt" Dzogchen teachings to the westerners?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:09 am 
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The question is ... what this has to do in the Dzogchen forum? Regarding the introduction, while the author received a Gelugpa education, it sounds more like a advaita new-age mixture ... which certainly can be of some help for certains peoples. It's always better to live in a better world, and certainly today.

Sönam

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:10 pm 
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spanda wrote:

What do you think? Another attempt to "adapt" Dzogchen teachings to the westerners?


Yes.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:26 pm 
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The question is ... what this has to do in the Dzogchen forum?


Peter claims to teach from a Dzogchen perspective. I remember running into his stuff online when I was a new student of ChNN's and it was a bit confusing b/c Peter claims to be a student of ChNN too - at least he lists him, or used to, as part of his bona fides on his web-site.

Ergo, there is some utility in having this information available on the forum in case there is someone seriously interested in the teachings and searching the relatively small subset of information about Dzogchen available online.

If someone Google's "Peter Fenner Radiant Mind" then in addition to his marketing material, they may also be simultaneously exposed to the idea that Peter's choice to sell Dzogchen as a 'workshop' approach for westerners without (insofar as I'm aware) permission from the very teachers he cites is not the only way to learn about the teachings.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:44 pm 
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Magnus was 100% right on another thread, Guru Rinpoche warned of the degeneration of the Dzogchen teachings through perverted views and false teachers. Tragic.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:36 am 
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You guys are paranoid. Peters cool, watch his YouTube videos. No one owns the Dzogchen view or teachings, get used to it... :smile:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:59 am 
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No one owns the Dzogchen view or teachings, get used to it...


You may be mistaken about this. The teachings do have a source. This is part of the reason why the Teaching includes the circumstances and conditions in which it was received. Sometimes that source also indicates the triple sealed nature of that specific teaching. You remember that part, yes?

That source and energy is just a "real" as you or I, as are the conditions and admonitions of those who have revealed the teachings that you're cribbing from.

Something to think about.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:01 am 
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When you receive a teaching of any kind, especially if it is linked to Tantra or Dzogchen, you have to know the source of that teaching and its connection to the lineage of transmission. A teaching has its origin and its principle, so you can understand that it is not something invented by somebody. If someone invented it with their intellect, it could not work. A teaching must have been taught and transmitted by a being who was totally realized, such as Buddha Shakyamuni, Garab Dorje, or Vajrasattva.
There is always the source of a teaching, and a continuous uninterrupted lineage from that source to the master from whom you receive that teaching. It is very important for you to understand the lineage and source of the teaching.

ChNNR

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:10 am 
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This. :thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:21 am 
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Sonam, please post from where you get all these Rinpoche quotes too and not just his name under it.
As for owning the teaching, of course there are owners.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:40 am 
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I dont agree. The origin of a teaching is not as important as it's functionality. Does it bring benefit. Dzogchen didn't come from primordial mythological sources. Lamas wrote the tantras from the state of Rigpa. Our state of Rigpa is Samantabhadra, is Vajrasattva. I believe Dzogchen is a science of Awareness, with methods that can be taught generically to any individuals of interest. I have found this to be the case time and time again with individuals that have no interest in Buddhism or religion having great success and benefit. The lineages are fine and useful... But finding the right teacher is crucial. I recommend a small sangha with easy personal access to a teacher. By the way, I have never claimed to be master of Dzogchen or a " master " of any tradition. I just share what I have found to work consistently.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:50 am 
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Jax wrote:
I dont agree. The origin of a teaching is not as important as it's functionality. Does it bring benefit. Dzogchen didn't come from primordial mythological sources. Lamas wrote the tantras from the state of Rigpa. Our state of Rigpa is Samantabhadra, is Vajrasattva. I believe Dzogchen is a science of Awareness, with methods that can be taught generically to any individuals of interest. I have found this to be the case time and time again with individuals that have no interest in Buddhism or religion having great success and benefit. The lineages are fine and useful... But finding the right teacher is crucial. I recommend a small sangha with easy personal access to a teacher. By the way, I have never claimed to be master of Dzogchen or a " master " of any tradition. I just share what I have found to work consistently.


If you are a senior student and teach on your masters behalf and following his exact instructions and within the context of your masters teachings you don't need to be a master. If you teach Dzogchen independently you have to be a Dzogchen master, no way around that I am afraid.

/magnus

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:17 am 
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Pero wrote:
Sonam, please post from where you get all these Rinpoche quotes too and not just his name under it.
As for owning the teaching, of course there are owners.


As I'm now working on the Dzogchen Teachings, They all come from that book ... at the right moment and at the right place. Sorry for not having done so before!

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:36 pm 
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Quote:
I believe Dzogchen is a science of Awareness, with methods that can be taught generically to any individuals of interest. I have found this to be the case time and time again with individuals that have no interest in Buddhism or religion having great success and benefit.


Jax - You're all over the place bro! You come on strong from this "non-dual awareness" perspective, but then say that Dzogchen is a science that produces results?

This is what I don't understand. Teachers like ChNN have stated *clearly* that the methods of Dzogchen are NOT technology that can be applied without the teacher.

Rinpoche has said specifically that this is a grave misunderstanding among westerners particularly - I mean - we come by it honestly, right? So many things in our lives revolve around technology that "just works".

But with the key difference is that the teacher is the very root of this process of applying methods that have been handed down for centuries.

It doesn't compute that you can use those methods and claim that they work, when the very source from which you cribbed them is saying 'no realization without the teacher'.

It can't be both ways. If the Teacher's are lacking capacity and are inadequate, then how can their methods bring realization?

And if their methods used under their guidance can bring realization, and they make it clear that part and parcel of that process, fundamental and germane to it is the participation of the teacher, then how can the process be stripped down and someone turn around and say that there is no owner of the teachings after you just received it from the one entrusted with teaching?

Surely you can see this point Jax, and why it's confusing, to me at least.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:44 pm 
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CapNCrunch wrote:
Surely you can see this point Jax, and why it's confusing, to me at least.
If you reckon it is confusing for us, imagine how confusing it is to him! Especially when you consider that he believes it!
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:25 pm 
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IME, if one doesn't understand and, more importantly honor, the necessity of the Guru, lineage, and transmission, there's simply no way one can have a true experiential understanding of Dzogchen (as opposed to a mere intellectual understanding of Dzogchen). The true experience of Dzogchen is due to the Guru's blessing/grace. Not only is the Guru the source of the true experience of Dzogchen, it is also the Guru who confirms that we have, indeed, had that correct experience. "All that glitters is not gold," and it is so, so easy to make an honest mistake and wander down the wrong path. To think that one can dispense with the Guru, lineage, and transmission and that one can and should streamline and secularize Dzogchen for the "modern" world is, to me, a clear indication that the person has not yet had the real experience.

I say this because I thought for years (as in pretty much a decade) that I had understood Dzogchen, thinking much the same things as our friend Jax. (Happily, I did not share my views with others or set myself up as a Dzogchen guru.) I had more than 20 years fairly rigorous practice behind me, my Teacher had died, I practiced threk-chod, said yig-gya whenever I was not doing something else, and thought that was that. It wasn't until an old Dharma bro talked me into attending a retreat with a bona fide Tibetan Dzogchen Teacher that I realized I had been deluding myself. I was drunk at the time and, therefore, I said sure, what the heck? Returning from that retreat, I returned to formal practice. While I am still only "knocking at the gate," I've gained enough experience since then to know now that what I had thought was accomplishment and the end of the journey was merely intellectual understanding. I can only thank my good karma that I didn't set myself up as a Dzogchen Guru and delude others as well as myself.

In any case, Jax, I'm praying for you. I recognize only too personally where you're coming from. I haven't chimed in before to this thread because I wanted to be sure you are mistaken. I now feel quite sure about that. If you feel totally confident that you are A) on the right track and B) are qualified to be teaching Dzogchen, please go and present your understanding and experience to a recognized Master within the lineage, for instance H.H. the Dalai Lama, H.H. Sakya Trizin, the Druk Gyalwang, Dodrupchen Rinpoche, Garchen Rinpoche, Ayang Rinpoche, or Yangthang Rinpoche -- someone of that caliber and authority. If they sign off on you, great. However, I doubt very much that that will be the case.

Good luck and best wishes. :namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:37 pm 
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:good:

/magnus

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:02 pm 
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A small addendum: Several months ago, Loppon Rechung (of Mipham Shedra in Boulder, CO) was talking about the natural state and books on Dzogchen. He said he believes it is actually dangerous to read a lot of books on Dzogchen before one has absolutely and incontravertedly recognized the true state of nonconceptual meditation. He felt, in particular, Westerners are very prone to this mistake due to our intellectualism and the free access to so many Dzogchen texts. Loppon Rechung's opinion is that, reading lots of books on Dzogchen before one has seen the true nature of things, people form intellectual ideas about Dzogchen, thinking that they understand when, in fact ,they don't. In that case, it can take years and years for such people to realize that they have been mistaken, or never. Loppon Rechung felt that it was better to follow the instructions of one's Guru, having their meditation checked and corrected on a regular basis. Then, after one has correctly recognized the true state, reading the specific Dzogchen texts recommended by one's Guru can help one expand even further into the practice. The issue is the timing of this textual input. My own Root Guru, Sonam Kazi, said the same thing more than 35 years ago. He felt the time to read the Dzogchen texts was after one's realization, not before.

I offer this as a caveat against simply reading the available Dzogchen literature in English, thinking that one has understood the natural state, and then traveling down a wrong path. :namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:11 pm 
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pemachophel wrote:

I offer this as a caveat against simply reading the available Dzogchen literature in English, thinking that one has understood the natural state, and then traveling down a wrong path. :namaste:



Dzogchen texts are manuals, not literature, and need to be understood in that way.

They need to be studied in conjunction with a teacher, until one's understanding is comprehensive and moving in the right direction. If one is studying with someone who does not have an actual understanding of Dzogchen but merely uses Dzogchen as a way attracting students in order to make a living, this can also interfere with a student's progress. So it is important to make sure that one's teacher of Dzogchen is a truly qualified teacher.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
pemachophel wrote:

I offer this as a caveat against simply reading the available Dzogchen literature in English, thinking that one has understood the natural state, and then traveling down a wrong path. :namaste:



Dzogchen texts are manuals, not literature, and need to be understood in that way.

So it is important to make sure that one's teacher of Dzogchen is a truly qualified teacher.



Tashi delek,

- How can a beginner have a knowledge about the truly qualified Dzogchenpa Master?
- This does count also in chosing as a beginner, a Tantric Master.

So it seems to be nearly impossible to make a correct choice as a beginner, so good karma and to have built up in previous lives a connnection / base, would be important........ Maybe i did forgot something

Mutsog Marro
KY

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