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The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
Sanghamitta
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:44 am

Have you watched the video Rev Pannisakira ?
What Randi described as the process that is undergone to produce homeopathic "remedies" corresponds to the process as described even by its practitioners. In other words..NONE of its original material is left...not an atom. As Randi says its like grinding down a grain of rice and diluting it in a volume of water equivalent to the mass of the solar system............
So even that analogy, that of a tantric response to bring about a paradoxical effect fails.
The analogy you have made would indeed fit the model of psychophysical response that is initiated by the placebo effect..but that effect can be initiated just as effectively with inert sugar pills that have no pretensions of being magic bullets. In other words its not the homeopathic remedy that brings about the effect..its the mind. So what does the homeopathic industry contribute to that process..nothing. Its simply very lucrative, and a way for the semi educated to gain prestige in their neighborhood without the bother of actually applying their brain to the acquisition of real knowledge.
In order to buy into the whole delusional system you have to accept the notion that the water retains a " memory " of the original substance which is no longer present. And by the time we have trotted down that path then I see no limit to the ideas that one would be prepared to swallow whole..along with little sugar pills.
This issue has been examined in great depth by the British National Health Service..whose research wing is always on the look out for less costly alternatives to allopathic medicines, and unlike its counterparts in the privatised system in the US has nothing to lose and everything to gain from cost cutting...It is funded by involuntary contribution..not by commercial interest.
And it found no merit at all in homeopathy after exhaustive testing.
I should declare my own interest..I am a senior manager in the NHS whose doctorate was in in the aetiology of disease processes.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Paññāsikhara » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:17 am

My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: .

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Annapurna
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Annapurna » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:32 am

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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tiltbillings
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:37 am


Sanghamitta
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:43 am

The video makes it clear, as do other sources, including officially sanctioned homeopathic sources, that it is highly unlikely that even a molecule of the original material is left...
The water "retaining a memory" explanation is not my explanation it, is the official explanation given by homeopaths to explain how the no longer present material has an effect.
There is of course a much simpler explanation...it doesn't. Which was the conclusion arrived at by N.I.C.E. the body that regulates the purchase of therapies of all kinds for use in the UK NHS. And which itself is part of a European Union regulative body.
Their findings parallel that report quoted by Shonin....that any effect can easily be shown to be that of a placebo.
That it does not need Hahnemann's gothic edifice of pseudoscience to explain it.
The real topic of interest here to a Buddhist, is the placebo effect. Not the magical thinking that it comes wrapped in.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Laurens
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Laurens » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:44 am

Lets go back to the original video posted:

The lady talks about mass a lot at the beginning, saying there's not much mass. Not much mass compared to...? I weigh roughly 11 stone, and I know I have a lot of mass compared to say a flea, but compared to the Earth, I am not a lot of mass. The universe could be condensed to the size of a bowling ball? What is with that? If you compressed the world so that there is no space, wouldn't the mass not have any size?

Energy is light?? We can cross out the mass? If we crossed out the mass, it would be closer to 1 than to 0, because if there is no mass there would be no energy...

Stephen Hawking did not come up with string theory, it's clear she doesn't know what she is talking about.

Protons, electrons and neutrons are not 'pieces of energy' they are particles. Back to string theory,the "vibrations" on the strings that she mentions are actually waves on the strings that would create the aforementioned particles.

The body has an infinitesimal amount of mass? Last time I checked I could weigh myself quite accurately...

I am not energy. I am mostly carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen, with a bit of phosphorous, sulphur and few metals and that is basically it. I need energy to survive, yes. But unless you include mass into your definition of energy, which you can do with E=MC² (but she doesn't as she keeps referring to mass), I am not energy.

Disease is not the transformation of energy from one state to another? Here is the correct definition of disease: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease

At that point I could watch no further.

If homeopathy was legit you would not need to completely butcher everything we know about science to convince people of it.
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

Carl Sagan

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Laurens
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Laurens » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:53 am

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

Carl Sagan

Sanghamitta
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:56 am

Ah but the problem there Laurens is that homeopaths tend to be totally ignorant of science..indeed to see it as the enemy. They prefer instead to trust untested and indeed untestable hypothesis drawn from a prescientific age and assume that this is more in line with Buddhadhamma. Which is odd. Even the Dalai Lama has said that he has no doubt that allopathic medicine is what has kept him alive, and has openly acknowledged the limitations of Tibetan medicine when dealing with serious conditions.
Homeopathy does not even have the merit of folk medicine like Tibetan Medicine...which developed over centuries by trial and error and can deal quite effectively with a range of more minor conditions.
Of course expecting homeopaths to examine the actual evidence is expecting turkeys to vote for Christmas.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

Sanghamitta
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:34 am

And asking for proof that homeopathy works on animals is to invite an anecdote about how a particular remedy brought back Mrs Slocombe's pussy from the edge of expiration... This is likely to be offered as proof.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Annapurna
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Annapurna » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:39 am

Hi, Laurens,

I'm sorry I can't be any more helpful just now, but I am inundated with work, plus, Dhammawheel is not a suitable platform to teach homeopathy. All my link sources are German, so what would that help you?

However, if you wish to be my homeopathy student, contact me and I will be happy to discuss details with you.

Otherwise, all I can offer is my website, for now, while not all texts are being uploaded just yet.


http://naturheilpraxisbeuing.blogspot.com/

Best wishes.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

Sanghamitta
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:16 am

Non sequitur....
No one was asked for tuition in homeopathy. What was made was an entirely reasonable request for a link to peer reviewed proof of the efficacy of homeopathy. Its an entirely reasonable request...but for something that doesn't exist.
Indeed all peer reviewed studies and double blind testing data that exists show the complete opposite, that homeopathy is entirely without credibility.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Laurens
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Laurens » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:36 am

Indeed I am not asking to become a student of homeopathy.

I am asking that you provide evidence that homeopathy actually works as a cure.

Saying that 'you need to experience it' is not evidence, telling me that homeopathy works on animals without providing anything to substantiate that claim is not evidence.

You said that there is nothing you could show me that would make me accept homeopathy as actually working. I'm saying that there is.

Find a scientific paper that has been submitted to peer-review that has conducted some kind of unbiased double blind test that shows beyond doubt that homeopathy works as something more than a placebo.

My guess is that you would have a hard time finding such evidence, therefore I am completely justified in disbelieving it.
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

Carl Sagan

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Hanzze
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Hanzze » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:42 am

Believe has its healing effect, that is present everywhere. Otherwise many of us would not be here :-) There is nothing wrong with it. The more natural, the less bad Karma :-) Just an other kind of first steps in the right direction. :clap:
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Sanghamitta
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:48 am

There is nothing " natural" about homeopathy..we are not talking about herbal medicine or traditional healing methods. We are talking about a variety of pseudoallopathic medicine based on magical thinking.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Laurens
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Laurens » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:50 am

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

Carl Sagan

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Hanzze
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Hanzze » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:58 am

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Sanghamitta
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:24 am

Water blessings may or may not be effective. That is another discussion. What is a fact is that water blessings are not a million dollar industry involving " practitioners " with no professional accountability or legally recognised accreditation who charge fees. Unlike homeopaths.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Hanzze
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Hanzze » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:52 am

So is there a different? :-)
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Annapurna
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Annapurna » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:54 am

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Lazy_eye
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Re: The Weird Science of the Homeopathic Universe

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:59 am

Not disagreeing about homeopathy, which looks as dodgy as it gets. But the basis for "scientifically validated" treatments is sometimes also unclear.

For instance, there are studies suggesting the effectiveness of SSRIs is indistinguishable from -- and may be partly or largely due to -- the placebo effect. Speaking of a million dollar industry...billions actually...


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