Ngondro

[Clarence]

Are you sure about that? The Jewel Ornament doesn't discuss things like ngondro.

Really? And what do you know about Kagyu?

[Lingpupa]

Are you sure about that? The Jewel Ornament doesn't discuss things like ngondro.

Really? And what do you know about Kagyu?

I'm really not sure how to take that. I think I'll play safe by not responding.

[Clarence]

Are you sure about that? The Jewel Ornament doesn't discuss things like ngondro.

Really? And what do you know about Kagyu?

I'm really not sure how to take that. I think I'll play safe by not responding.

As a joke as you are the one who owns the Kagyu Yahoo group, right? Anyway, if you are the same Alex Wilding, just wanted to say I enjoy your posts on there.

Best, C

[Lingpupa]

As a joke as you are the one who owns the Kagyu Yahoo group, right? Anyway, if you are the same Alex Wilding, just wanted to say I enjoy your posts on there.

Oh, I see. Thanks for the kind word. Yes, I am that Alex W, not the media guy who gets the No 1 spot on Google!
Of course the Jewel Ornament does cover some of the material for the "common preliminaries" (four thoughts to turn the mind) in wonderful detail, but that's not really the sense being discussed here. I wonder if Greg was thinking of something else at the time, perhaps the ToC? (See how we can use acronyms to display our deep knowledge?)

[gregkavarnos]

Ooooooopppppssssss... My wrong!
Jamgon Kongtrul "The Torch of Certainty" (this time I am certain! )

[Clarence]

Oh, I see. Thanks for the kind word. Yes, I am that Alex W, not the media guy who gets the No 1 spot on Google!
Of course the Jewel Ornament does cover some of the material for the "common preliminaries" (four thoughts to turn the mind) in wonderful detail, but that's not really the sense being discussed here. I wonder if Greg was thinking of something else at the time, perhaps the ToC? (See how we can use acronyms to display our deep knowledge?)

One day I will have learned enough acronyms to belong to the group of deep knowledge.

Anyway, I think I will order ToC.

[gregkavarnos]

One day I will have learned enough acronyms to belong to the group of deep knowledge.

Anyway, I think I will order ToC.

Asking your lama would probably be a good idea too. I was lucky enough to get a transmission of Gendeun Rinpoches advice for Ngondro to three year retreatants . Unbelievable quantity of detail (and quality too), stuff that was neither in the sadhana, nor the ToC. Stuff that you can only get from a lama! Plus when you get it from a lama you also have the opportunity to ask questions regarding details and about stuff that was not said or read.

[Malcolm]

One day I will have learned enough acronyms to belong to the group of deep knowledge.

Anyway, I think I will order ToC.

Asking your lama would probably be a good idea too. I was lucky enough to get a transmission of Gendeun Rinpoches advice for Ngondro to three year retreatants . Unbelievable quantity of detail (and quality too), stuff that was neither in the sadhana, nor the ToC. Stuff that you can only get from a lama! Plus when you get it from a lama you also have the opportunity to ask questions regarding details and about stuff that was not said or read.

TOC is an incomplete translation. All the Sahaja Mahāmudra stuff was left out.

[Jangchup Donden]

Are there any texts that detail the signs that accompany ngondro? WOMPT surprisingly doesn't.

Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche gave a teaching on ngöndro. I think this may go over some of them: http://www.namsebangdzo.com/Ngondro_Com ... p/3779.htm

[heart]

One day I will have learned enough acronyms to belong to the group of deep knowledge.

Anyway, I think I will order ToC.

Asking your lama would probably be a good idea too. I was lucky enough to get a transmission of Gendeun Rinpoches advice for Ngondro to three year retreatants . Unbelievable quantity of detail (and quality too), stuff that was neither in the sadhana, nor the ToC. Stuff that you can only get from a lama! Plus when you get it from a lama you also have the opportunity to ask questions regarding details and about stuff that was not said or read.

TOC is an incomplete translation. All the Sahaja Mahāmudra stuff was left out.

I am not surprised to hear that, at time of the translation that kind of stuff was very hush-hush. What a shame it is with incomplete translations. Luckily this text been available for a long time http://www.amazon.com/Mahamudra-elimina ... B0006E7MJM

/magnus

[sangyey]

I have a general question on ngondro. Can it be said that ngondro contains all of the teachings of tantra?

[dakini_boi]

I have heard that said. In fact, it contains all the teachings of all 9 vehicles. I heard about one practitioner who accomplished rainbow body through doing ngondro 11 times.

[Willy]

Are you sure about that? The Jewel Ornament doesn't discuss things like ngondro.

Just a little history question here guys....

Was the ngondro put together by the 9th karmapa? I can't remember -

What's the history of the ngondro?

[Willy]

Ooooooopppppssssss... My wrong!
Jamgon Kongtrul "The Torch of Certainty" (this time I am certain! )

I love that book- good ngondro book

[gregkavarnos]

TOC is an incomplete translation. All the Sahaja Mahāmudra stuff was left out.

Maybe that did it on purpose in order to create a purely Ngondro textbook since Mahamudra "practice" is taught independently of Ngondro and without students having started/completed Ngondro?

[conebeckham]

Are you sure about that? The Jewel Ornament doesn't discuss things like ngondro.

Just a little history question here guys....

Was the ngondro put together by the 9th karmapa? I can't remember -

What's the history of the ngondro?

The liturgy was composed by 9th Karmapa, Wangchuk Dorje, and has been updated by the lineage masters since then--in regard to the supplications to successive Gurus of the Karma Kagyu Mahamudra lineage.

Prior to this text, however, the practices of refuge, Vajrasattva, Mandala and Guru Yoga were part of the "full sadhana" of various yidams--6th Karmapa, Thongwa Donden, wrote the main sadhana of Vajrayogini, for example, and you'll find similar liturgy (though not exactly the same) there....

Basically, I think the Four Extraordinary Preliminaries have traditionally been a part of the preliminaries on the path of Skillful Means--Creation and Completion, Highest Yoga Tantra, Six Yogas of Naropa, etc., but the stress on "Ngondro" practice as a self-sufficient complete practice, culminating in Guru Yoga, as the basis for the path of Liberation--Sahaja Mahamudra--was developed over time in the Karma Kagyu lineage, and formalized by Wangchuk Dorje, who also wrote the most common training manuals in that tradition, the Ocean of Certainty, and the shorter ones....and I should note that Wangchuk Dorje's text does include a short "Daily Recitation" for yidam practice, so we can say it stresses the Path of Liberation, but doesn't avoid any of it's "roots" in the Path of Means.

[ngondronewbie]

Tashi Delek,

I was happy to find these postings regarding ngondro. When I asked my teacher what I should do (he is a traditional Tibetan teacher), he told me to do ngondro. I have also been told I need to get at least half-way through ngondro to do the practice that I feel a major connection with. This is why I have tried to do ngondro.

But like others, a lot of others, I don't feel any connection to it and actually resent it. I understand the purpose of preliminary practices, but why do we all have to do this same ngondro? There are countless paths to enlightenment and so many different ways to meditate, but why is there really only one Ngondro? Only one way to accomplish purification, and generate merit?

When I say I don't feel a connection, I mean I feel like I have never done this before. The first time I met my teacher, the first time I read the 21 Praises of Tara, the first time I did many Chenrezig recitations (outside of the regular puja) and many other instances, I felt an overwhelming connection and was typically brought to tears and felt tremendous devotion. I feel nothing with ngondro.

I have been trying to do this practice for several years with almost no results. I struggle with the thought of having to do something just because. I suppose that's ego and if that's all it was, then I would push through and be a trooper, as one posted said. But it's more like feeling no emotional, karmic connection. Does anyone know of someone that was given a different set of preliminaries to do?

I will speak to my teacher, once I can get up to see him. But it would be helpful to know of something else to ask about.

Thanks.

[Dharmaswede]

The most Western friendly approach for understanding ngondro I have found is the concept of neuroplasticity. If you can identify a rational that speaks to you, then it might give you the leverage to experience the deeper levels. Not that I have been there...

Best Wishes,

Jens

[Josef]

Tashi Delek,

I was happy to find these postings regarding ngondro. When I asked my teacher what I should do (he is a traditional Tibetan teacher), he told me to do ngondro. I have also been told I need to get at least half-way through ngondro to do the practice that I feel a major connection with. This is why I have tried to do ngondro.

But like others, a lot of others, I don't feel any connection to it and actually resent it. I understand the purpose of preliminary practices, but why do we all have to do this same ngondro? There are countless paths to enlightenment and so many different ways to meditate, but why is there really only one Ngondro? Only one way to accomplish purification, and generate merit?

When I say I don't feel a connection, I mean I feel like I have never done this before. The first time I met my teacher, the first time I read the 21 Praises of Tara, the first time I did many Chenrezig recitations (outside of the regular puja) and many other instances, I felt an overwhelming connection and was typically brought to tears and felt tremendous devotion. I feel nothing with ngondro.

I have been trying to do this practice for several years with almost no results. I struggle with the thought of having to do something just because. I suppose that's ego and if that's all it was, then I would push through and be a trooper, as one posted said. But it's more like feeling no emotional, karmic connection. Does anyone know of someone that was given a different set of preliminaries to do?

I will speak to my teacher, once I can get up to see him. But it would be helpful to know of something else to ask about.

Thanks.

Hey Newbie,
What commentaries on ngondro have you read so far?
Ngondro can be a rich practice when we stop worrying about how many of this or that we have done.
Remember that ngondro is basically an elaborate Guru Yoga practice and Guru Yoga is the heart of the path.
The more you understand about Guru Yoga the more beneficial all of your practices will be and the more inspiring things like ngondro will become.

Also, there are many "ngondro" and many many ways to purify negativities and accumulate merit and wisdom. Ngondro is just a systematically applied way of doing it.

[gregkavarnos]

Dear ngondronewbie,

Just because your ngondro practice is not satisfying your expectations does not mean it is not bringing results.

Clinging to your experiences from other practices is not going to help you progress. The harder to try to achieve the effect, the more you anticipate it, the less opportunity you give to your practice to actually progress (not in relation to numbers, but in relation to quality).

Anyway why do you expect all the practices to give the same result? An ice cold beer and a cup of hot chocolate are both beverages but you don't expect them to give the same results, so why expect it from the practices?

Really though, you should go see your teacher and discuss the issue.

These are just my thoughts and I am no authority on on the matter, just trying to struggle through my daily practices and ngondro!